Do you think death is random?

[Mark Quayle]

This is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I do hope one day you will know Him.

Haha for once I agree with you! The terminology, that God is 'responsible' for our fallen state is humanly derived. The Bible shows that 'causes' all things. That does not imply that he is 'responsible' for, whatever that vaguely means. The Bible is more than clear in Romans 9 that he is not to be blamed.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Haha for once I agree with you! The terminology, that God is 'responsible' for our fallen state is humanly derived. The Bible shows that 'causes' all things. That does not imply that he is 'responsible' for, whatever that vaguely means. The Bible is more than clear in Romans 9 that he is not to be blamed.

Well we agree at least on two things. Jesus Christ of Nazareth

 

[cfposter]

God in no way caused Adam or Eve to sin. They chose freely to sin. God set them up for success, but they still blew it (as we all probably would).
This explains it perfectly: Theological FAQ: Eden as Set-up

He planned for them to sin. They still chose to sin, but God knew they would and set them up to fail to achieve His purposes.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 

[cfposter]

This is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I do hope one day you will know Him.

Actually, it is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But this is meat when it really should be milk but because of the obfuscation of the Truth, this is now meat.

 

[Sorn]

Your implication here is that if he intended for them to fall that he is to be blamed. Read Romans 9.

If God had set them up to fail, so that they would sin, then yes, He would be responsible.
If you go and tinker with someones car brake so it doesn't work properly and they crash the car because the brakes didn't stop the car, the you are at least partly responsible, the person driving may also have driven badly, speeded etc, but you contributed to the conditions that resulted in a crash.

 

[cfposter]

I don't know if God was in control of every person who died. There are some who died because of their own life style, to those who had their lives taken away from them by someone or something else. I don't think he is the one who says: "this guy will die because this other guy will murder him.. or he will get into a very bad car accident". God can probably for-see it but being the one controlling it is something I can't believe is generally true.

If there is anything that God is not in control of means that God is not ALL POWERFUL. For what you can control is POWER. And if any POWER is not under HIS POWER, then that POWER is NOT His? Therefore, He couldn't be ALL POWERFUL.

 

[cfposter]

The key to understanding this is the following regarding the sins of man:

MAN is accountable.
God is responsible.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If God had set them up to fail, so that they would sin, then yes, He would be responsible.
If you go and tinker with someones car brake so it doesn't work properly and they crash the car because the brakes didn't stop the car, the you are at least partly responsible, the person driving may also have driven badly, speeded etc, but you contributed to the conditions that resulted in a crash.

He wasn't tinkering with their brakes.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The key to understanding this is the following regarding the sins of man:

MAN is accountable.
God is responsible.

Responsible is a vague way to put it. Too many cat calls will result.

 

[trophy33]

Nothing is random, everything in this universe has a cause.

 

[Sorn]

He planned for them to sin. They still chose to sin, but God knew they would and set them up to fail to achieve His purposes.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

He planned for the eventuality of sin, but He did not plan for them to sin.
Also, the passages you quote from Romans 8 are about the creation being subject to the effects of sin, ie after sin had entered the world. Remember, Adam and Eve were created free from sin and its effects, they were superior humans to us in many ways. However they still chose to sin and through them, sin entered the world/creation. They were sinless, and therefore perfect to begin with. Romans8:20 would suggest otherwise according to your theology, not correct.

 

[Sorn]

He wasn't tinkering with their brakes.

Tinkering with their moral compasses then??
If He 'tinkered' with ANYTHING in a way that would contribute to them choosing to sin then He is partly responsible. Except any 'tinkering' He did was to steer them away from sin but they still fell because they chose to sin.

 

[Cis.jd]

If there is anything that God is not in control of means that God is not ALL POWERFUL. For what you can control is POWER. And if any POWER is not under HIS POWER, then that POWER is NOT His? Therefore, He couldn't be ALL POWERFUL.

Why? Don't forget that God is also virtues, how can he be both all powerful and virtues at the same time if he does impose how a persons ends up? Should we know make him responsible for all the kids who died in the holocaust or someone who is evil?

 

[cfposter]

He planned for the eventuality of sin, but He did not plan for them to sin.
Also, the passages you quote from Romans 8 are about the creation being subject to the effects of sin, ie after sin had entered the world. Remember, Adam and Eve were created free from sin and its effects, they were superior humans to us in many ways. However they still chose to sin and through them, sin entered the world/creation. They were sinless, and therefore perfect to begin with. Romans8:20 would suggest otherwise according to your theology, not correct.

No, He planned for them to sin. The creature was made subject to vanity (not willingly) - Per Romans..

Adam and Eve were NOT finished. Perfect is to have the Spirit of God. Adam and Eve sinned, which is NOT perfection.

 

[lsume]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

Of course, we all start dying from the moment we’re born. The key is finding Christ in this life. It’s so important that I believe God doesn’t allow for random death perhaps.

 

[bling]

And you're saying God caused Adam and eve to sin because of this law? Okay now I see what you mean and agree. It's just seems weird to say God caused evil but if he didn't then who did? I don't think the cause you mean is the same cause people think. Most think if you cause evil you are evil because you caused it but God caused evil more in an indirect way out of necessity it seems.

When Science talks about “The Law of Cause-and-Effect”, We know an autonomous free will choice would be outside of the Law. God has the power to be outside of having to obey such “Law” and God did not just break that Law “once" at the beginning of time and thus everything is just the effect of the one uncaused cause. God each moment is causing of His own free will lots of things that are not the result of one first cause. God is outside science, so God is being a first cause of lots of things, He is not even being considered by science so, they look and find other possibilities (these are provided by God to avoid making Himself, scientifically known [another topic]).

The question is then: “Does God have both the power and Love” to provide man with just some very limited mental ability to make a truly autonomous free will choice (be the first cause of a thought-out conclusion). Since this first cause is limited to the mind of the individual with God limiting the effect of this through (allowing something physical to happen or not happen) it does not have to effect God’s plains for the world.

God has forced a false prophet against the prophet’s will to speak the truth, but even though he spoke the truth, he was still condemned by his heart. God was the first cause for those words and the prophet was the first “cause” of his hardened heart.

The fact that Adam and Eve were going to sin from the beginning of time as God foreknew, does not mean God caused them to sin. Given the situation Adam and Eve were in and the fact they had not humbly accepted God’s Love as pure charity, meant they would sin, but again that is not God causing them to sin. God knew perfectly what Adam and Eve did in the Garden as pure unchangeable History (foreknowledge) from the beginning of time, but it was what they decided to do. If Adam and Eve had done something different then God would have known that from the beginning of time as pure unchangeable history.

God did allow Adam and Eve to sin, for the help sin provided for them in the possible completion of their objective.

 

[cfposter]

Why? Don't forget that God is also virtues, how can he be both all powerful and virtues at the same time if he does impose how a persons ends up? Should we know make him responsible for all the kids who died in the holocaust or someone who is evil?

Yes, God would be responsible for ALL Murder, ALL child molestation, ALL SIN!

But man still committed those acts willing through his own conscience and will and must be held ACCOUNTABLE. But God shows He is RESPONSIBLE. God chooses whom He shall save. Jesus told His Disciples, 'You have not chosen me, I have chosen you'.

You see ALL GOOD works are COPYRIGHT by Jesus Christ. He owns them - no matter who does them. They are HIS.

 

[renniks]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

I think God knows exactly when we will die. I would not use the word "control", because he doesn't control us, but he has all knowledge, so that he can work all things for our good.
There was a guy in the Bible that God gave 15 extra years to, just because he asked. So don't assume that everything is set in stone.

"Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, `This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. I will add fifteen years to your life."

 

[cfposter]

Of course, we all start dying from the moment we’re born. The key is finding Christ in this life. It’s so important that I believe God doesn’t allow for random death perhaps.

There is truly no such thing as randomness. Randomness exist for us that are not all powerful. But flip a coin and the reality is everything can be computed to give a precise measurement to the result. But time we can't control - so randomness is an abstraction to explain the power we lack.

 

[Sorn]

Of course, we all start dying from the moment we’re born. The key is finding Christ in this life. It’s so important that I believe God doesn’t allow for random death perhaps.

No, probably for about the 20 or so years for most people, you are getting stronger and better, the opposite of dying. Sometime between then and 30ish you start dying.
Yes, everybody is always fighting the laws of thermodynamics and decay that it results in but for the 1st 20 or so years you are actually winning the fight, beating the enemy. Then it all changes after that.