Do you think death is random?

[FutureAndAHope]

Roman 8 states in full context:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
If I may, how does God have a way of working each situation to our benefit and at the same time not micromanage our life? This passage has been used to prove predestination a Calvanist view. Thanks for engaging.

The way I look at it is the term “foreordained” is partly in reference to God, preplanning the cross, and the subsequent salvation of man, but also his plan for our lives, when we believe. I do believe that God puts limits on people, their habitation, the people they will meet, which I will explain latter. But it is not to the degree that they have no free will.

1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

We see in Romans 9:22-23 that people who are marked as vessels of wrath, God had “endured with much longsuffering”, or in other words He had attempted to save many times.

Rom 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Judas, the betrayer of Jesus, was marked in this way, Jesus calling him a “devil”, before he betrayed Him. So the plan of God for Judas was to betray Jesus. As Adam and Eve had a tree in the garden, it was a point of choice for them, which would determine their destiny afterwards. In the same way I imagine that God sets points of decision before us, “endured with much longsuffering”, sets up encounters, within his plan, that become the “tree” choice for us.


I have done computer science, and there is a form of Artificial Intelligence that relies upon binary choices, a computer can essentially, “know”, all possible out comes of decisions, if it puts limits on what those decisions are. Yet it is still a binary system, based on “yes”, “no” choices. This type of system could be applied to free will. If God preplanned the steps that we are to take, but within a binary system, he could still allow for free will.


This would be a reason why God could say:


Gen_6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God with in a binary, system, could work out, best and worst scenarios. It could show why, God could say “repenteth me that I have made them”. Why, with in the set of rules God laid down for man, predestined, it came to the lowest denominator, the worst possible outcome. So God was sorry, he had made man. Yet his long term plan was the cross, He could not give up on his plan of redemption.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The way I look at it is the term “foreordained” is partly in reference to God, preplanning the cross, and the subsequent salvation of man, but also his plan for our lives, when we believe. I do believe that God puts limits on people, their habitation, the people they will meet, which I will explain latter. But it is not to the degree that they have no free will.

1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

We see in Romans 9:22-23 that people who are marked as vessels of wrath, God had “endured with much longsuffering”, or in other words He had attempted to save many times.

Rom 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Judas, the betrayer of Jesus, was marked in this way, Jesus calling him a “devil”, before he betrayed Him. So the plan of God for Judas was to betray Jesus. As Adam and Eve had a tree in the garden, it was a point of choice for them, which would determine their destiny afterwards. In the same way I imagine that God sets points of decision before us, “endured with much longsuffering”, sets up encounters, within his plan, that become the “tree” choice for us.


I have done computer science, and there is a form of Artificial Intelligence that relies upon binary choices, a computer can essentially, “know”, all possible out comes of decisions, if it puts limits on what those decisions are. Yet it is still a binary system, based on “yes”, “no” choices. This type of system could be applied to free will. If God preplanned the steps that we are to take, but within a binary system, he could still allow for free will.


This would be a reason why God could say:


Gen_6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God with in a binary, system, could work out, best and worst scenarios. It could show why, God could say “repenteth me that I have made them”. Why, with in the set of rules God laid down for man, predestined, it came to the lowest denominator, the worst possible outcome. So God was sorry, he had made man. Yet his long term plan was the cross, He could not give up on his plan of redemption.

How do YOU define 'free will'?

 

[Deade]

We are all slaves of sin, or slaves of Christ. I myself use the word, freewill, to designate the mere fact that we do indeed make real effective choices, and that we have a will, but beyond that, I find no notion in Scripture that a Creature can in any way operate independently as the Creator does.

And as for us Regenerated, "Apart from me you can do nothing." THAT is how we are 'free indeed'.

Indeed, Paul warns us not to allow our flesh anything but to think us as slaves to righteousness or we would serve sin. Rom. 6:19 "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." Because our flesh is weak and we need to put it to death every day.

Evil is a necessary part of creation or the tree of Knowledge never would have existed in the first place.

That would be "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." An important distinction.

Judas, the betrayer of Jesus, was marked in this way, Jesus calling him a “devil”, before he betrayed Him. So the plan of God for Judas was to betray Jesus. As Adam and Eve had a tree in the garden, it was a point of choice for them, which would determine their destiny afterwards. In the same way I imagine that God sets points of decision before us, “endured with much longsuffering”, sets up encounters, within his plan, that become the “tree” choice for us.

Can we really say those three or any people are condemned until God is completely done with everything. I don't see such license anywhere in scripture. In fact, it says not to judge. I don't think it makes a lot of difference if the devil (scapegoat) or our evil flesh caused sin. We are still accountable. Only God can see our hearts.

 

[Cis.jd]

Because I know God is using Evil to teach us Good. I know He will save everyone in due time.

Plus I trust His Word:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Wow, so burning kids in ovens or all these brutal reports we've heard in history is his way to teach us Good?

You dictators do that right. Kim Jong and his likes using public death sentences to teach their citizens not to disobey them. You just made God look like them on the reason of your first sentence.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

How do YOU define 'free will'?

Free will is the ability to respond to stimulus. Be that a divine moment, where God reveals Himself to man. Or be it an earthly choice, to give in to the flesh.

I wonder whether God has a two leveled plan. The master plan is dictated by our interactions with the divine. If we choose to accept God's revelation, his master plan for the "Christian" is put into play. If we deny the divine His master plan for the "sinner" is put into play. Yet layered underneath this are choices that we make on a daily basis, simple things which do not involve any planning. Things like gross sin, which the bible says God does not tempt us to do. Evils and harm. Yet even within this God has a plan for good if sin occurs.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Can we really say those three or any people are condemned until God is completely done with everything. I don't see such license anywhere in scripture. In fact, it says not to judge. I don't think it makes a lot of difference if the devil (scapegoat) or our evil flesh caused sin. We are still accountable. Only God can see our hearts.

I believe there is a point of no return. Where a person has used up all of God's patience. In such a situation, they may be assigned an unthankful, wrathful, task. But the cross still has available for the average man, covering sin from birth to death.

 

[cfposter]

Wow, so burning kids in ovens or all these brutal reports we've heard in history is his way to teach us Good?

You dictators do that right. Kim Jong and his likes using public death sentences to teach their citizens not to disobey them. You just made God look like them on the reason of your first sentence.

God is responsible for all the evil in the world. To deny that is denying knowledge of God.
God created the evil, it doesn't mean He performs the evil. I think you should be pointing the finger at yourself and mankind, they perform the evil.

If you don't want to believe that - it wont make it so. If you want to pretend that is not true, it wouldn't change the fact that it is true.

It is in man's nature to blame God for all the evil God planned and created but yet it is man performing it.

 

[Cis.jd]

God is responsible for all the evil in the world. To deny that is denying knowledge of God.
God created the evil, it doesn't mean He performs the evil. I think you should be pointing the finger at yourself and mankind, they perform the evil.

If you don't want to believe that - it wont make it so. If you want to pretend that is not true, it wouldn't change the fact that it is true.

It is in man's nature to blame God for all the evil God planned and created but yet it is man performing it.

Why would it be man's nature to blame. You acknowledged that he created evil and purposefully intended such outcomes? I don't see the logic on how blaming him is bad or false especially when you yourself have said he is responsible.

 

[timothyu]

It is in man's nature to blame God for all the evil God planned and created but yet it is man performing it.

All the life in creation is food for something else. All our fellow mammals act in the same ways as us, using instincts to survive. What has separated man from them is they take to survive while we are aware of the opportunities out there and take advantage of them for gain beyond what others see as sufficient. That is why God gave all the selfish the 'thou shalt nots'. But you will also notice that God condemns those who know the ways of the spirit over those who still live by the flesh only, as one has no excuse to continue acting in fleshy ways while the other can be forgiven for ignorance.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The way I look at it is the term “foreordained” is partly in reference to God, preplanning the cross, and the subsequent salvation of man, but also his plan for our lives, when we believe. I do believe that God puts limits on people, their habitation, the people they will meet, which I will explain latter. But it is not to the degree that they have no free will.

1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

We see in Romans 9:22-23 that people who are marked as vessels of wrath, God had “endured with much longsuffering”, or in other words He had attempted to save many times.

Rom 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Judas, the betrayer of Jesus, was marked in this way, Jesus calling him a “devil”, before he betrayed Him. So the plan of God for Judas was to betray Jesus. As Adam and Eve had a tree in the garden, it was a point of choice for them, which would determine their destiny afterwards. In the same way I imagine that God sets points of decision before us, “endured with much longsuffering”, sets up encounters, within his plan, that become the “tree” choice for us.


I have done computer science, and there is a form of Artificial Intelligence that relies upon binary choices, a computer can essentially, “know”, all possible out comes of decisions, if it puts limits on what those decisions are. Yet it is still a binary system, based on “yes”, “no” choices. This type of system could be applied to free will. If God preplanned the steps that we are to take, but within a binary system, he could still allow for free will.


This would be a reason why God could say:


Gen_6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God with in a binary, system, could work out, best and worst scenarios. It could show why, God could say “repenteth me that I have made them”. Why, with in the set of rules God laid down for man, predestined, it came to the lowest denominator, the worst possible outcome. So God was sorry, he had made man. Yet his long term plan was the cross, He could not give up on his plan of redemption.

Ok, thanks for engaging!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Free will is the ability to respond to stimulus. Be that a divine moment, where God reveals Himself to man. Or be it an earthly choice, to give in to the flesh.

I wonder whether God has a two leveled plan. The master plan is dictated by our interactions with the divine. If we choose to accept God's revelation, his master plan for the "Christian" is put into play. If we deny the divine His master plan for the "sinner" is put into play. Yet layered underneath this are choices that we make on a daily basis, simple things which do not involve any planning. Things like gross sin, which the bible says God does not tempt us to do. Evils and harm. Yet even within this God has a plan for good if sin occurs.

Well then, ok, I guess I need to ask what you mean by 'binary system' in post #121

 

[Mark Quayle]

Indeed, Paul warns us not to allow our flesh anything but to think us as slaves to righteousness or we would serve sin. Rom. 6:19 "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." Because our flesh is weak and we need to put it to death every day.

Agreed. You might enjoy the old, old book, still in print, The Mortification of Sin, by John Owen.

That would be The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." An important distinction.

Yes, it is, but it piques a bit when called the Tree of Knowledge, because Adam and Eve were indeed innocent both in blamelessness AND IGNORANCE. It made me think when he left off those two important words, 'good' and 'evil'. The question is relevant to the debate that keeps coming up about free will.

Can we really say those three or any people are condemned until God is completely done with everything. I don't see such license anywhere in scripture. In fact, it says not to judge. I don't think it makes a lot of difference if the devil (scapegoat) or our evil flesh caused sin. We are still accountable. Only God can see our hearts.

God says we are all condemned, until regenerated. Close on the heels of John 3:16, is John 3:18 "...he that believeth not is condemned already..." But yes, we don't know to whom God has chosen to show mercy and grace. In fact, we need to be careful lest we find ourselves deceived that we are among the Elect. (Lol, I keep hearing that within my theology it is automatic, and the Elect need not work; but quite the opposite is true! Nothing automatic about it! Only the assurance that those whom God has chosen will indeed be with him in Heaven.)

 

[cfposter]

Why would it be man's nature to blame. You acknowledged that he created evil and purposefully intended such outcomes? I don't see the logic on how blaming him is bad or false especially when you yourself have said he is responsible.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

[Cis.jd]

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

So you are not going to answer my posts directly in it's context as I see..

 

[Taodeching]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

I agree. We have an appointed time to live and an appointed time to die. Everyone who dies no matter how it was their time.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Well then, ok, I guess I need to ask what you mean by 'binary system' in post #121

Chess as an example, each player can only move in x or more directions. It is constrained. A person playing chess may move that piece x or more places. A powerful computer can determine all possible outcomes of such a system to the end of the game, where one person wins. It is actually more complex than a binary system, a binary choice system, is similar to the chess game, but each player can only make one of two decisions, eat the apple, or not, sin, or not sin.

God could put additional constraints on such a system, to "simplify" it. Hence setting in motion pre-planned routes through such a system. i.e. at any point in time, He would "know", what will happen in the future, based upon the current actions of players. Because He is setting additional, simplifying constraints, or "stories", He can set up definite paths, like "the cross", "the beast of revelation", and "the final return of Christ".

But the pathways are controlled by man's decisions, choices to accept or deny God, choices to act with faith or doubt.

Again, classic Predestination, can not account for verses like the one I mentioned in Genisis where God "wished he had not created man". If life is just a story, God already knows everything that will happen, hence how could He feel emotion around the creation of man. Also, classic predestination can not account for scriptures that say "God is long-suffering, not willing that any perish".

A binary system, with simplified story routes, can explain, free choice, the tree in the garden, men's acceptance or rejection of God, a just judge who judges sinners.

Classic predestination is cruel, and sadistic, not allowing men repentance, and in my opinion, a doctrine that drives men away from Christ.

 

[aiki]

Foreknowledge does not equal nor necessitate causation. In other words, God may know all but this doesn't mean He causes all. To say divine foreknowledge is necessarily causal is to make a fundamental error in modal logic.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Chess as an example, each player can only move in x or more directions. It is constrained. A person playing chess may move that piece x or more places. A powerful computer can determine all possible outcomes of such a system to the end of the game, where one person wins. It is actually more complex than a binary system, a binary choice system, is similar to the chess game, but each player can only make one of two decisions, eat the apple, or not, sin, or not sin.

God could put additional constraints on such a system, to "simplify" it. Hence setting in motion pre-planned routes through such a system. i.e. at any point in time, He would "know", what will happen in the future, based upon the current actions of players. Because He is setting additional, simplifying constraints, or "stories", He can set up definite paths, like "the cross", "the beast of revelation", and "the final return of Christ".

But the pathways are controlled by man's decisions, choices to accept or deny God, choices to act with faith or doubt.

Again, classic Predestination, can not account for verses like the one I mentioned in Genisis where God "wished he had not created man". If life is just a story, God already knows everything that will happen, hence how could He feel emotion around the creation of man. Also, classic predestination can not account for scriptures that say "God is long-suffering, not willing that any perish".

A binary system, with simplified story routes, can explain, free choice, the tree in the garden, men's acceptance or rejection of God, a just judge who judges sinners.

Classic predestination is cruel, and sadistic, not allowing men repentance, and in my opinion, a doctrine that drives men away from Christ.

Then your 'classic predestination' is not what Reformed Theology/Calvinism teaches. I'm beginning to think it is only a caricature built by those who dislike predestination. Calvinism and Reformed Theology have no problem with verses like "It repented God that he had made man". And if God made man for himself, how could he NOT have emotion concerning man? (And, for those readers who would immediately cry out, "just the other day you were a proponent of God's immutability and impassibility", those attributes do not deny him emotion.)

You seem to have to work at it, to get your cats in single file here. Its a lot more simple to say, God caused it, and we choose according to our will, to do exactly what God caused us to do.

It is certainly no more complicated logic to add God to the front of the chain of causation, than to admit that it is all caused, one way or another. Nothing goes uncaused, except First Cause. Sorry.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Foreknowledge does not equal nor necessitate causation. In other words, God may know all but this doesn't mean He causes all. To say divine foreknowledge is necessarily causal is to make a fundamental error in modal logic.

Except that the English use of 'foreknowledge' is not the same as the Hebrew and Greek. Furthermore, the notion that God is under obligation to other free agents is a denial of who God is. He owes nobody anything. What he does, he does because it is what he does --it is of his own nature. If he were one of us, we would say he does it because he wants to. He need not wait for someone to, of their own free will, finally 'let the tumblers of the lock into place'.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You seem to have to work at it, to get your cats in single file here. Its a lot more simple to say, God caused it, and we choose according to our will, to do exactly what God caused us to do.

But you seem to eliminate a genuine choice for man? COuld you explain how you perceive God in regards to salvation damnation?