Do you think death is random?

[Strong in Him]

Calvinism says no different. Of course you had a choice, and of course you chose. How does that counter the fact that it was predestined by God?

God knew what I was going to do/wear this morning and throughout the rest of the day - doesn't mean he made it happen.

 

[Deade]

Predestination is like forever (infinity): something our finite minds can't quite comprehend. Predestination and free will do exist together. Exactly how we probably not know until God shares His infinite knowledge with us.

God has the power to get what he wants and not have it infringe on our free will. He can do this by putting us in situations that lead us to doing what he wants. We do have free will but it's layered underneath God's will.

Layered or take time out of the equation. Do you know what that is like? I don't. A couple of scriptures tell us when our works are known:
Eph.1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Heb 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

Like most Christians, you seem to think mere chance has some kind of authority in causation. It is self-contradictory to say so.

God knew exactly what was going to happen, because he caused it to happen. There is no such thing as chance --that is "just a placeholder for, 'I don't know'."

As far as humans are concerned chance is real and must be dealt with. Ecc. 9:11 "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

I don't believe there is chance with God. Because He is not constrained by time, He can force our choices to perform His will completely. I try to think like David when dealing with evil in our lives. [See Psalm 51.]

 

[Mark Quayle]

As far as humans are concerned chance is real and must be dealt with. Ecc. 9:11 "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

Probably worth mentioning that the word translated 'chance' in Ecclesiastes 9:11 designates 'whatever happens'; as some translations put it, 'unpredictable events'.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't believe there is chance with God. Because He is not constrained by time, He can force our choices to perform His will completely.

Agreed, but, I don't see the need to defer to using the word, "forces", here. He causes. It is not like he is unkind, nor is there any inclination toward the notion that one can oppose him effectively, were he not to add a little more power to his decision from time to time. He decides -- it will happen.

You may find the idea of the 'The Two Wills of God' useful. They are, basically put, God's plan, and God's command. They are pretty obviously not the same.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Predestination is like forever (infinity): something our finite minds can't quite comprehend. Predestination and free will do exist together. Exactly how we probably not know until God shares His infinite knowledge with us.

I agree to your words, here, but what do you mean by 'free will'? For example, and according to Scripture, the mind governed by the flesh is unable to submit to God's law. It is indeed free to make actual choices, but its choices are always against God, in their core.

We are all slaves of sin, or slaves of Christ. I myself use the word, freewill, to designate the mere fact that we do indeed make real effective choices, and that we have a will, but beyond that, I find no notion in Scripture that a Creature can in any way operate independently as the Creator does.

And as for us Regenerated, "Apart from me you can do nothing." THAT is how we are 'free indeed'.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God knew what I was going to do/wear this morning and throughout the rest of the day - doesn't mean he made it happen.

No, but the fact he made it happen is how he knows. The biblical term, 'foreknowledge' doesn't limit how he knows. It means he knows ahead of time, but it also means something far more intimate than the English implies. He leaves us "free" to decide. In fact, I insist on that --but that decision is caused, whether you believe in God or not, as a matter of fact. Causation logically demands it. There are no little first causes running about the planet.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Really??
God caused Adam to sin and then sent Jesus to die for the sinners he himself had caused?
God caused people to become sinners and evil, and then punished them because they became too evil, as in Noah's time?

If God caused people to sin then he should have been delighted to see them doing what they were made to do and what he had caused to happen - why, then, would he punish them? And why would he send his Son to take all the sins that he had caused upon himself, and then be killed?
That's not love.

Love says, "you chose to get yourselves into that mess and if I punished/killed you for it, you would only have yourselves to blame - but I don't want that for you. I want you to be forgiven and have eternal life, so I'm going to take your punishment myself."
We deserved eternal death and separation from God because of our actions and sin; he chose to forgive us and enable us to have eternal life and every blessing in Christ.

You anthropomorphize God, and illogically make him subject to external causes, particularly among them, chance. And you exalt humans to his level, claiming they operate in some way independently of his causation (indeed, magically, independently of the rule of cause-and-effect).

But yes, we deserve what we get because of our actions and sin. And if we don't get what we deserve, it is by his mercy and grace. Nothing I said implied otherwise.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Then don't say God caused them to sin because, as you just said yourself, He didn't.

No, actually, I didn't say that.

 

[cfposter]

They were finished and were perfect but still sinned.
Lucifer was perfect and finished also but he also chose to sin.
God tells us that the only way to ensure sin doesn't happen is to have His Spirit in dwelling. But something can still be perfect and finished without it, it will just be different, like an apple is different from an orange but they can both be perfect and finished.

I'll agree that Adam was PERFECT in the sense of what God wanted Adam to be at the time. But the Perfect Adam was Christ Jesus.

 

[cfposter]

Well you have to make a decision here. Even if Man was the agent in doing such things, if God really purposefully intended all this, then he is the main culprit. Your whole "he chooses whom he saves" is not only irrelevant to the discussion but it makes a horrible god. He chooses who goes into eternal damnation? Really. That is someone we should take as all good? Sounds to me the only reason why you believe in God is fear, the faith you have has no positivity behind it. It's no where different than a north korean making an allegiance to Kim Jong just so he doesn't die.

I've already stated that God is RESPONSIBLE.
And I don't believe in the myth of eternal damnation.

 

[Cis.jd]

I've already stated that God is RESPONSIBLE.
And I don't believe in the myth of eternal damnation.

Then how do you believe God is good, if he is responsible for brutal murders of many people in history?

 

[cfposter]

Then how do you believe God is good, if he is responsible for brutal murders of many people in history?

Because I know that without evil, how can I call what is Good - Good?

 

[timothyu]

I'll put it this way, if someone decides to jump in front of a moving bus, I wouldn't say that's something God planned.

I was recently driving from the summer palace back to the winter one. Along the way I had made numerous split second decisions such as taking an alternate scenic route, not stopping for the usual coffee, passing a slower vehicle, even slamming on the brakes to stop and take a sudden photo op then changing my mind. All these things altered my trip perhaps by minutes but obviously by seconds. Ninety miles into the trip, a gopher decides to dart onto the road and connect with my back tire at precisely the right moment. It left me wondering how many variables had to happen, including braking for a pothole seconds before the incident, that all led up to that fateful moment. Somehow random and extremely unlikely coincidence didn't seem the option at the time. So many things had to come together with all the decisions and speeding up and slowing down. I'm sure the gopher up to that point of the morning had also made decisions that altered that moment by minutes if not only seconds. Even an extra turn of the head earlier could have altered it's fate. The intricacies of life are complicated yet work seamlessly as a whole. Nothing we could ever accomplish on our own.

 

[Strong in Him]

No, but the fact he made it happen is how he knows.

God knows what is going to happen at any time because he is king and creator of the universe - all knowing and all seeing.

That doesn't mean that he makes me choose certain things - unless you think that he has a vested interest in what colour socks I decide to wear.

It means he knows ahead of time, but it also means something far more intimate than the English implies. He leaves us "free" to decide. In fact, I insist on that --but that decision is caused, whether you believe in God or not, as a matter of fact.

Right - so Hitler had free will to choose to exterminate all Jews, but God caused him to make that decision against his chosen people?
A man has free will whether or not to get drunk and rape a woman - but God caused him to make that choice?
We have free will to choose whether to look after the planet or not - but God causes us to make decisions to pollute and destroy what he has created?

If that was true, it would be unjust of God to punish people for things that he had caused to happen in the first place.

 

[Strong in Him]

You anthropomorphize God,

Jesus himself compared God to a loving, perfect heavenly Father.
Christianity is about a relationship with a personal God; not a disembodied and disinterested Spirit.

and illogically make him subject to external causes, particularly among them, chance.

God is above all things. He knows all things; nothing that happens will cause God to say, "I wasn't expecting that/that was a coincidence/give me a minute, I need a plan B".
He knows everything - but that is not at all the same as saying "I need Gill (me) to have a chronic illness for 18 years"/"my plan for him is that he becomes an alcoholic"/I want to cause that child to grow up with an abusive father."
The thief comes to steal and destroy; Jesus came that we might have fulness of life, John 10:10. Have a guess at who the thief might be, and why he might want to destroy God's people and world.

And you exalt humans to his level, claiming they operate in some way independently of his causation

God gave humans the ability to choose - choice is a God given gift.
If God can choose and we are made in his image, what do you think that might mean for us?

But yes, we deserve what we get because of our actions and sin.

No, people deserve death and hell for rebelling against God, but he chose not to let us suffer that.
You make it sound as though we, Christians, deserve to be punished when we mess up - yet if we have received Jesus, that is not the case.

And if we don't get what we deserve, it is by his mercy and grace.

We certainly have eternal life and every spiritual blessing in Christ because of his mercy and grace; yes.

 

[Cis.jd]

Because I know that without evil, how can I call what is Good - Good?

I did not ask you how you would know what is good, i asked you how could believe God is good if he is responsible for someones horrible death?

 

[cfposter]

I did not ask you how you would know what is good, i asked you how could believe God is good if he is responsible for someones horrible death?

Because I know God is using Evil to teach us Good. I know He will save everyone in due time.

Plus I trust His Word:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God knows what is going to happen at any time because he is king and creator of the universe - all knowing and all seeing.

That doesn't mean that he makes me choose certain things - unless you think that he has a vested interest in what colour socks I decide to wear.

I think we all --including me-- will be surprised and amazed to see just how vested an interest God has in every motion of every particle and force, emotion and will, when we see him as he is.

Right - so Hitler had free will to choose to exterminate all Jews, but God caused him to make that decision against his chosen people?
A man has free will whether or not to get drunk and rape a woman - but God caused him to make that choice?

Who said they had free will? We are all slaves to sin, or slaves to Christ.

"Such things must come --but woe to the one through whom they come." God is just. But why must they come? I have yet to see a 'freewill' passage in scripture that has to do with more than simple will or simple choice.

We have free will to choose whether to look after the planet or not - but God causes us to make decisions to pollute and destroy what he has created?

If that was true, it would be unjust of God to punish people for things that he had caused to happen in the first place.

Romans 9

Here's your judgement of God: "It is unjust of God to punish people for things that he caused to happen."

Here's God's answer: "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"

Do you suppose God is just being pompous and shouting you down like a bully? No, he is making a valid point (and he doesn't even owe you that).

 

[timothyu]

Evil is a necessary part of creation or the tree of Knowledge never would have existed in the first place.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus himself compared God to a loving, perfect heavenly Father.
Christianity is about a relationship with a personal God; not a disembodied and disinterested Spirit.

Who said anything about a disembodied and disinterested Spirit?

God is above all things. He knows all things; nothing that happens will cause God to say, "I wasn't expecting that/that was a coincidence/give me a minute, I need a plan B".

Of course --Agreed.

He knows everything - but that is not at all the same as saying "I need Gill (me) to have a chronic illness for 18 years"/"my plan for him is that he becomes an alcoholic"/I want to cause that child to grow up with an abusive father."
The thief comes to steal and destroy; Jesus came that we might have fulness of life, John 10:10. Have a guess at who the thief might be, and why he might want to destroy God's people and world.

We have fullness of life in Christ --not in evil events (or in deliverance from them or sustenance and comfort through them), nor in God's good, but unrealized, intentions toward us. Fullness of life in Christ includes all the sustenance, comfort, deliverance and anything else he has in mind to do, but also in our participation in his suffering. Fullness of life in Christ includes also a removal of affections toward the things of the flesh, such as the demand for self-determination as opposed to the joyful submission to Christ, and so many other things.

You place substance in the events and flavor of the things of this passing mist of temporal existence. God is removing us from that point of view.

"So while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." --from 2 Corinthians 5

God gave humans the ability to choose - choice is a God given gift.
If God can choose and we are made in his image, what do you think that might mean for us?

Dogs and monkeys, even robots, can choose. So what?

But you want to claim that by being made in his image it means actual autonomy --separate ability apart from Christ?? "Without me you can do nothing."

We will find in Heaven, I believe, that we had not been complete persons, until we see him as he is, and KNOW our dependence on him for every detail. Not only will we see that, as concerns the past, in this timeframe, but THERE IN HEAVEN we will KNOW that apart from him we are nothing.

God has a huge riddle for us, full of delight, and has given us the answer, in which we currently are unable to see the depth of it.

No, people deserve death and hell for rebelling against God, but he chose not to let us suffer that.
You make it sound as though we, Christians, deserve to be punished when we mess up - yet if we have received Jesus, that is not the case.

People deserve death and the Lake of Fire, according to their sin. Show me otherwise. I do not disagree that they deserve it for rebelling, but that is sin. But I was not talking about the born again, there, but unbelievers.

You might notice, however, that I did not say we Christians will be punished if we mess up (though I will easily say we deserve it --thank God for the Savior). I know it is easy to react to something you read as soon as you read it, but really, you should try to keep connected what was written connected. You react here to what you quoted out of context. What I said was not disconnected with what you quoted re mercy and grace, and reacted to with the following:

We certainly have eternal life and every spiritual blessing in Christ because of his mercy and grace; yes.