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Do you belong to a CULT?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Oct 16, 2002.

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  1. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    434
    +0
    Ed,
    I see that you are a person of few words? :idea:
    Perhaps I am wrong, but did you read all of the verses I jotted down??
    I suggest that maybe we are from different tribes? (of the twelve tribes of Israrel-I just thought perhaps that I should add that?) :) I bet that you don't know what I am talking about even now, huh?
    ------P/N/B/
    *****


     
  2. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    I read all the verses you cited and that's the reason for my poist being that way. If I knew what you were/are talking about, would I have asked you these curt questions, huh?

    Ed
     
  3. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
     

    That's what the bible says booth, but the trinity says that Jesus is man and God and He is God in human form and that Jesus is the father too!  I'll stay with what the scripture says and that is that God is the father of Jesus and that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son as the trinity teaches!  Are you beginning to see all the contradictions the trinity presents booth?  Scripture does no such thing! 

    1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

    No trinity is this passage either, booth! 

    Oh & Sarge, if your out there, when are you going to start posting some stuff in your own words? And try being a little more brief?  Also, your really beginning to wear out your christadelphian Philadelphia message!  Can you be a bit more original ?  It's really getting old and worn out!

     
     
  4. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Well, no; one in essence, two in persons. It says "Jesus is IN the Father, & the Father is in JEsus." (not "Jesus IS the Father"). "Have I been with you so long and you do not know Me? Do you not know that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? Why do you say, 'show us the Father'? He who has seen ME, has seen the FATHER!..."
    duhhh, huh???
     
  5. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Here is what the Bible says: Believe the Lord and He will show you Himself.

    Posted by edpobre: "[Isaiah 37:16 says the Lord God CREATED heavens and earth. Isaiah 46:9 says there is NO other God besid Him. Isaiah 63:16 identifies the Father as the oinly one God. Isaiah 64:8 identifies the Father as rhe "potter" meaning the CREATOR. Malachi 2:10 identifies the Father as the ONLY creator.]"

    Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

    Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

    Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

    1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

    God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.
     
  6. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Here is a list of verses that, if simply believed, reveal the truth perfectly. When people begin to force the verses to say something they don't you get all sorts of clever deceptions. However, if one believes that God is not trying to trick anyone, and believes what the verses say... they are very clear as to what God did.

    1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

    8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

    9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

    16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

    17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)
     
  7. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Ben, Do you have a Son?  When others look at your son don't you think they see you in your son?  Does that mean your son is you?

    Now Ben, do you really think Jesus was telling Phillip that He was the father and the Son all rolled up into one?  Read the passage over about a dozen times and you'll see what the scripture reveals to you.  The key to understanding this passage is to subordinate man's interpretations and teachings to second place.

     
     
  8. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Hey there franklin... check out the above reply, and the verses going along with it. Take them as they are... just what they say. And believe

    FOW
     
  9. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    So what's your point fow?  I suppose your trying to tell me that from the passages you posted, they are saying that Jesus is the father, is equal with the father, Thomas bowed down to Jesus, so that means He is God etc..... why don't you take a look my at my previous posts with all the scripture I posted and you will not see Jesus claiming to be God or making Himself equal with the father.... the scripture doesn't contradict itself, man's teachings contradicts the scripture!  The trinity contradicts scripture! I don't think you realize how you trinitarians destroy the true scriptural picture of who Jesus really is by making a co-equal, equal God ! One of these days you will see the true scriptural picture of who Christ really is according to scripture and not the imaginations of men!
     
  10. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Nope franklin... every verse you posted will fit right in with the following which is straight from the word of God:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

    Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

    Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

    1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

    God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

    8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

    9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

    16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

    17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)
     
  11. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    now then... take the verses... and show me how that Chist is not exactly who He says He is... God. God through His love took the nature of man.. which will explain every verse you have. His love demanded the sacrifice that He made... His love demanded that He become flesh and cast away the His glory for the task. God did submit Himself... He did take on flesh... He did become a servant... (which, once again, will explain everything you have.)

    I believe Him... you do not.

    take care

    FOW
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Wellll, actually, yes. THere are many times Christ affirms His deity---one is in John 14. "If you've seen ME, you've seen the Father." The only thing that makes sense is Him saying "I am equal to the Father"---precisely as Phil2:5-8---He did not consider EQUALITY, to be ROBBERY.

    Jesus struggles similarily in John6---the Jews were sayin', "Isn't this JESUS? Do we not know his father and mother? (Who does He THINK He IS?!) And Jesus is saying, "The will of God is that whoever sees the Son and believes, shall be saved---and _I_ will raise him up. So whoever comes to God, GOD GIVES ME, and _I_ will raise him up. Only one who is EQUAL to God, can assert that "coming to GOD is the same as believing in ME-JESUS; for those who come to GOD are given to ME; believing in GOD is the same as believing in ME.
     
  13. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. (John 8:54)

    I believe Him and I take Him at His every word!  You are believing the words of men! 
     
  14. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Posted by franklin: "Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. (John 8:54) I believe Him and I take Him at His every word! You are believing the words of men"

    John 8:54 fits in exactly with what was said... God in His love took off His Almighty nature to enable Him to become flesh... because God in His glory cannot be man. Once this was done ... He had to be glorfied by Himself who remained in Glory. Yes... Christ is not some separate individual... He is God who took the nature of man... in essence taking off the glory of God, because of His love. (which is who He is) All of the verses agree with this... which is why you see Christ portrayed as you do... as the Son being subservient to the Father, and as the LORD Himself... from whom He came. And remember, in the end Christ will once again subject Himself to the Father and God will be all in all as before. (Hebrews sorta gives you an example of what happened in that God said to Christ "today I have become your Father"... and later in the same thought called Christ God and the creator of all things... much like John 1 and Colossians.)

    I will repost... because you did not show any error... here... enjoy!
     
  15. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

    Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

    Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

    1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

    God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

    God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

    However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

    Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

    (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

    ... but as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect. I will post the verses for you below... take care

    1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

    8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

    9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

    16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

    17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)
     
  16. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Fow, BenJ, you both have a bad case of trinitarianIdis!!  There is a sure cure.... the scriptures and the scriptures alone!

    For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus....  1 Tim 2:5

    Tradition teaches that God who is spirit became a man, the scripture teaches no such thing!  Get your beliefs from scripture only and you will not find the pagen doctrine of the trinity in it! 

    Cheers

    FR

     
     
  17. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    then franklin... instead of telling me that what I say isn't in scripture... explain to me how that everything that I have said to you is found in scripture including the verses you post. Do you think that I am unaware of those verses, or that I just 'overlook' them as if that part of the bible doesn't count? Nope... it is all perfect... and that is why it speaks of Christ as it does. You can always say that what I post is incorrect... but you have yet to explain why.

    take care

    FOW

    Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

    Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

    Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

    1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

    God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

    God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

    However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

    Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

    (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

    ... but as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect. I will post the verses for you below... take care

    1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

    8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

    9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

    16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

    17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)
     
  18. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Hey there... adding on another...

    18) Jude 1:4-- "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Pretty explicit about that "only Sovereign and Lord huh.)

    19) Luke 24:52-- "then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."

    The list goes on

    take care

    FOW
     
  19. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    (Hhhhh.... Ben draws a breath to explain, "And GOD was the Word, and the Word flesh became and tabernacled among us", but realizes that Fields has already explained....)

    "Huh, er, uh, WHAT HE SAID!" ;)
     
  20. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Sorry mr Ben, but you and your buddy mr fields have only proved once again your failed efforts of proving the un-biblical theory of the trinity and that the bible speaks of a triune god that consists of 3 persons!  It is false and un-biblical and its roots are derived from pagenism and the traditions of men! Can you prove these statements of the doctrine from any version of the bible? 

    One God in three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Such is the Father, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit. Glory co-equal, Majesty co-eternal, neither compounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance. None is Greater than the other. None is Before or After in time than the other. None is dissimilar in Substance than the other.

    If your relying on the doctrine of the trinity your relying on a god of confusion and not the God of the scriptures! A God that raises "confusion" is not the God, Paul taught.  (no grins & no winky smiley faces here)
     
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