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Do you belong to a CULT?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Oct 16, 2002.

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  1. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    AV -

    No.

    *snip*

    :cool:
     
  2. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    AV -

    No, and there is nothing in Scripture which even hints at such a thing.

    *snip*

    No, they are not. You still don't understand the use of the definite article, do you?

    *snip*

    :cool:
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    I don't think in Proberbs 9:1 it is referring to "wisdom-as-a-concept", but rather "a wise WOMAN" (who is then contrasted with a FOOLISH WOMAN in verse 13).

    Look at the verses you cited as being "spoken by wisdom"---they are basic, foundational truths; the references I cited of the utterances of the Holy Spirit are SPECIFIC. THUS WISDOM SPAKE is a metaphor, while THE HOLY SPIRIT SPAKE means he had SOMETHING TO SAY....
    If you'll COAST up to the stoplights (best if you can master the timing so that as you reach the intersection the light CHANGES), and try to drive steadily, and not rabbit-start, your mileage will increase considerably...

    ;)
     
  4. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    Well, there you have it folks. Trinitarians will gladly read literal personality into the Holy Spirit, but insist that identical references to wisdom are only metaphorical - even when they are far more explicit than the references to the Holy Spirit.

    This is called "eisegesis", and it is a bad thing.

    I rest my case. :cool:
     
  5. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Franklin... every single verse you post fits in with what is below... yet your ideas do not fit in with the verses and concepts found straight from the word of God as described and listed below. Until you explain how the following is unbiblical, then you should take up underwater basket-weaving. Here is the re-re-re-re-post again.

    Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

    Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

    Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

    1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

    God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.

    Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

    God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

    However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

    Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

    (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

    But as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.

    Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect. I will post the verses for you below... take care

    1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

    8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

    9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

    16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

    17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

    18) Jude 1:4-- "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Pretty explicit about that "only Sovereign and Lord huh.)

    19) Luke 24:52-- "then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."
     
  6. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    I ask you franklin... is Christ "another"... as in a different thing?

    While of course He became like us... taking our nature... Christ was still in very nature God, from whom He came as described in the above post.

    You say that He is another thing all together. You assert that He was a man that God came into and glorified. This would qualify as "another" thing... as in not being God Himself... or not being God who denied His own glory, giving it away, and becoming flesh.

    If you do indeed say that Christ was just a man that God came into and glorified then you are contradicting what God said in Isaiah 42:8. God will not give His glory to another... and yet... read through the verses listed in the above post.

    Also... read Hebrews Chapter 9... tell me... did God not make the covenant? And... if you say no... then I've got some other verses for you. If you say yes... then you must adhere to my 7th set of verses above.

    take care franklin... and the basket-weaving thing was just a joke... not trying to be offensive to you... just enjoying some humor.

    FOW
     
  7. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Evangelion... I wonder if you realize what exactly the Spirit is. Our's... God's. Do you understand the concept?

    God is Spirit... and He is the Spirit as described in 2 Cor 3:17

    Or perhaps... John 4:24... where God is described as being spirit... not capital this time... but simply that His form is spirit. 2 Cor 3:17 says that He is the Spirit... (which is usually addressed as the Holy Spirit)

    take care

    FOW
     
  8. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    Hi FOW. Just wanted to comment on a few parts of your post to Franklin:

    By "God", you mean "the Father", don't you? Well if the Father will not give His glory to another, and the Son is "another", then the Trinitarian god contradicts Scripture by having the Son share in the glory of the Father. :p

    By contrast, the God of the Bible didn't give His glory to Jesus. He gave glory to Jesus, yes - but it was not His own. :)

    Also:

    Yep, I do.

    Do you mean "our spirit"?

    Do you mean "God's spirit"?

    Would you mind telling me what you mean first? Cryptic comments won't get you very far.

    Yep.

    Nope. That's Christ.

    Hence Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible:

    • 2Co 3:17 - Now the Lord is that Spirit -
      The word “Lord” here evidently refers to the Lord Jesus; see 2Co_3:16. It may be observed in general in regard to this word, that where it occurs in the New Testament unless the connection require us to understand it of God, it refers to the Lord Jesus. It was the common name by which he was known; see Joh_20:13; Joh_21:7, Joh_21:12; Eph_4:1, Eph_4:5.

      The design of Paul in this verse seems to be to account for the “liberty” which he and the other apostles had, or for the boldness, openness, and plainness 2Co_3:12 which they evinced in contradistinction from the Jews. who so little understood the nature of their institutions. He had said 2Co_3:6, that he was a minister “not of the letter, but of the Spirit;” and he had stated that the Old Testament was not understood by the Jews who adhered to the literal interpretation of the Scriptures.

      He here says, that the Lord Jesus was “the Spirit” to which he referred, and by which he was enabled to understand the Old Testament so as to speak plainly, and without obscurity. The sense is, that Christ was the Spirit; that is, the sum, the substance of the Old Testament. The figures, types, prophecies, etc. all centered in him, and he was the end of all those institutions.

      If contemplated as having reference to him, it was easy to understand them. This I take to be the sentiment of the passage, though expositors have been greatly divided in regard to its meaning. Thus explained, it does not mean absolutely and abstractly that the Lord Jesus was “a Spirit,” but that he was the sum, the essence, the end, and the purport of the Mosaic rites, the spirit of which Paul had spoken in 2Co_3:6, as contradistinguished from the letter of the Law.
    So this is not an ontological reference, but a figurative one.

    Remember what Jesus had said...?

    • Luke 24:38-39.
      And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
      Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
    Jesus certainly didn't believe himself to be a spirit. He totally refuted this idea! :D

    *snip*

    :cool:
     
  9. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Posted by evangelion: "By "God", you mean "the Father", don't you? Well if the Father will not give His glory to another, and the Son is "another", then the Trinitarian god contradicts Scripture by having the Son share in the glory of the Father. By contrast, the God of the Bible didn't give His glory to Jesus. He gave glory to Jesus, yes - but it was not His own."

    Whole point being... the Son is not "another"... He separated Himself but remains in very nature God. And yes... Christ is given the Glory of the Father... because they are one as described in my above posts that come straight out of the word. Christ is God in His love who separated Himself from His own glrory--Phil 2. This is the Father and the Son... it was not always this way. (John 1:1/Hebrews 1) Until you contradict them with the bible then you and franklin will have to take up the basket-weaving.

    Pertaining to the Lord is the Spirit... I believe what it says.

    take care

    FOW

    here are the verses... some of which deal directly with the glory of Christ... you tell me if LORD OF LORDS and Lord of Glory... being worshiped etc... are not examples of the glory of God alone.
     
  10. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

    8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

    9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

    16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

    17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

    18) Jude 1:4-- "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Pretty explicit about that "only Sovereign and Lord huh.)

    19) Luke 24:52-- "then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."
     
  11. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    FOW -

    If the Son is not the Father, he is necessarily, "another." Sorry, but that's just a simple point of logic - and you can't escape it without retreating into Modalism.

    This is found nowhere in the Bible. :cool:
     
  12. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    FOW -

    This is spam.

    If you have an argument, please present it.

    Don't just throw out a tidal wave of alleged proof texts without any exegesis to back 'em up. :cool:
     
  13. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Thanks... but they are backed up, by the Bible. Also... you can read through the posts that contianed the verses and debate the points brought to light therein. You can not contradict them with scripture.

    Here you go: Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

    Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

    Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

    1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

    God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.

    Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

    God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

    However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

    Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

    (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

    But as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.

    Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect.



    take care

    FOW
     
  14. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Posted by evangelion: "This is found nowhere in the Bible."

    Try John 1 or Phil 2
     
  15. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
  16. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    So, this is your argument, FOW?

    Well. We shall see what you have to say.

    Alas, they are not.

    No, I am not going to wade through 50 pages of posts just to find an argument which may or may not be worth my time. If you want me to address them, you must first present them.

    In my experience, 99% of Trinitarian arguments can be contradicted with Scripture - and those which cannot be contradicted, can be safely agreed with. :p

    *snip*

    Philippians 2 does not say that Jesus made himself a man. It says that he humbled himself and became a servant.

    But how often? No more than four or five times at the very most - which is nowhere near enough to prove your point.

    *snip*

    *snip*

    No, what it says is that there had to be a death in order to seal the covenant. It does not say that the one who originally made the covenant, was required to die Himself. Please check this passage in the original Greek. It does not say what you need it to say.

    *snip*

    Irrelevant.

    • John 1:6.
      There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    John was also sent from God. Does this make him God?

    No.

    *snip*

    No, he is the logos of John 1:1 made flesh. He is not the logos of John 1:1, simpliciter.

    Viva la difference.

    *snip*

    True enough. But in the Apocalypse, the creation is ascribed to the Father only - in contrast to the Son.

    *snip*

    No, the Greek says that he "thought it not something to be grasped."

    It was never his to begin with - and still isn't. :cool:
     
  17. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Posted by evangelion: "Alas, they are not"

    Prove it

    Posted by evangelion: "No, I am not going to wade through 50 pages of posts just to find an argument which may or may not be worth my time. If you want me to address them, you must first present them."

    Until you do... your arguements are not valid at all.

    Once again... I believe the Bible... I believe it as it is, simple, yet so hard.

    Everything you post from the Bible will fit into what I have posted.

    Also... all of the verses I posted... say exactly what they say. So, instead of saying: "you are wrong and I am right"... come up with some reason, from the Bible. All can see what has been posted... and all can see which lines up with the word.

    Once again... take what has been written for you... it's in one very nice set... in fact I'll re-post it again for you... and prove its error with the word.
     
  18. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

    Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

    Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

    1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

    God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.

    Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

    God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

    However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

    Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

    (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

    But as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.

    Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect. I will post the verses for you below... take care

    1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

    8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

    9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

    16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

    17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

    18) Jude 1:4-- "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Pretty explicit about that "only Sovereign and Lord huh.)

    19) Luke 24:52-- "then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."
     
  19. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    You can begin by providing scripture that proves the contrary to the "ideas" posted first... and then you can move onto the points raised by each of the numbered verses.

    take care

    FOW
     
  20. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    fields.....&nbsp; has anyone&nbsp;ever told you that your posts are extremely long? And another point....&nbsp; haven't you read&nbsp;or pondered the multitude of passages you pasted in your posts?&nbsp; Well, guess what?&nbsp; There is no sign of the trinity in them at all!&nbsp;


    Good night.....&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :sleep:
     
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