Do you belong to a CULT?

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by franklin Sorry mr Ben, but you and your buddy mr fields have only proved once again your failed efforts of proving the un-biblical theory of the trinity and that the bible speaks of a triune god that consists of 3 persons!  It is false and un-biblical and its roots are derived from pagenism and the traditions of men! Can you prove these statements of the doctrine from any version of the bible? 

Can you prove this false accusation from any source whatsoever. "its roots are derived from pagenism." I have asked before and you and the others have ignored the question. Simply this, do you speak the truth or not? Why is it you never respond when I post evidence that contradicts you? 1 John 5:7 for example.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Can you prove this false accusation from any source whatsoever. "its roots are derived from pagenism." I have asked before and you and the others have ignored the question. Simply this, do you speak the truth or not? Why is it you never respond when I post evidence that contradicts you? 1 John 5:7 for example.

There you go again OS! trying to rely on your old worn out silver bullet verse that was mis-translated centuries ago to try to prove your false doctrine!  This verse would not have needed to be inserted into the Bible by any man if the doctrine were correct in the first place!  Surely if it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it. But Jesus didn't teach this doctrine, on the contrary he actually taught us that his Father is his God and our God.  Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "  John 20:17

Face the biblical facts, the trinity is not scriptural.  (no grins & jumping, clapping smiley faces here either!)

 

[Ben johnson]

Face the biblical facts, the trinity is not scriptural.

How do you explain "JESUS HAVING NO BEGINNING"?

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
How do you explain "JESUS HAVING NO BEGINNING"?

When and where did I ever say Jesus had no beginning?  What's your point?  

 

 

 

[Ben johnson]

When and where did I ever say Jesus had no beginning? What's your point?

"This hope we have ...which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. For this Melchizedek, ...without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made LIKE THE SON OF GOD, He abides a priest forever." Heb6:19-7:3)

Having no beginning---how is that possible, if JESUS is a CREATED BEING?

"And the Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us." Jn1:14 Do we agree that the WORD is JESUS? The "ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER"?

"ALL THINGS came into being by Him, and apart from Him came nothing into being that has come into being."

NOTHING that was created, that has come-into-being, came into being APART from Jesus.

If Jesus was a CREATED BEING, and nothing which has come into being came apart from HIM, then how could He have been created? NOTHING that has COME-INTO-BEING came APART from Jesus---EVERY created thing REQURED Jesus' hand; who created Jesus?

&#149NOTHING CREATED, was created WITHOUT Jesus.

&#149Jesus had NO BEGINNING.

It seems we have two choices here:

2. Jesus is not God, He is a CREATED THING; but that violates 1Jn1:3, and Heb7:3. (You cannot say "only RECORD of beginning-days, the Greek says "echo mete arche hemera"---"NO BEGINNING OF DAYS", not "NO RECORD of a beginning".

1. Jesus is GOD---existed with the Father from the beginning, was there when the FIRST CREATED THING was created, was the CREATOR of the FIRST CREATED THING.

Seems to me to be only one choice...

 

[franklin]

The Scripture picture is so clear, the Trinitarian picture so contradictory and confused. The Scriptures plainly teach that it was the Holy Spirit-Power of God (not "God the Son") that came upon Mary, and that this Spirit power of God caused the conception in Mary of him who should therefore be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35). Compare "God was in Christ..." above with the following passages:

John 17:21, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

John 15:4, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." Acts 3:20, "And he (God) shall send Jesus Christ..." Acts 3:22, "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren..."

Jesus was not a co-eternal part of an omnipotent Godhead, but a prophet raised up by God.  God made Jesus perfect through suffering. Does this fit the co-equal, co-eternal idea? Such passages could be duplicated many many times over. All show that the doctrine of the Trinity, developed in Platonic philosophy and Greek metaphysics, is completely out of joint with the simple scriptural picture.  To say, to suit a theory, that he was a co-equal part of an all-powerful, eternal "Godhead" with infinite knowledge and wisdom, and at the same time a striving, praying, learning, mortal man is to take all meaning out of words.

 

[Ben johnson]

The Scripture picture is so clear, the Trinitarian picture so contradictory and confused. The Scriptures plainly teach that it was the Holy Spirit-Power of God (not "God the Son") that came upon Mary, and that this Spirit power of God caused the conception in Mary of him who should therefore be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35).

The Scripture is clear, is it? JEHOVAH-GOD, in the FORM of the Holy Spirit, came upon Marry. So then it is JEHOVAH-GOD-HOLY-SPIRIT that indwells us, distributing Spiritual gifts, teaching us, sealing us in salvation.

Right?

...uhhhmmmm, well, then, maybe I AM confused; Jesus said, "I will ask the Father, and He will send you another helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." Jn14:16,26

Here is my problem---if the HOLY SPIRIT, is naught but GOD HIMSELF----how then can GOD send the Holy Spirit to indwell us? That doesn't make sense to me---does it to you?

And another thing---surely you'll agree that, "And the WORD flesh-became and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." Surely you'll agree that was speaking of JESUS. How then do you explain, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him came nothing into being that has come into being." If Jesus is a created being, then WHO CREATED HIM???

"Apart from Jesus came NOTHING into being that has COME into being". Does that make sense to you? If Jesus was created, then GOD CREATED HIM---and John1:3 is FALSE!

Are you prepared to say "JOHN1:4 is FALSE"? Are you prepared to claim that the Holy Spirit is but a manifestation of JEHOVAH, without explaining how the FATHER can send the HOLY SPIRIT, if the Holy Spirit is not a SECOND PERSON???

(Ben leans back into his chair and chews on his pipe thoughtfully, awaiting the answer. Ben suddenly realizes he doesn't smoke---nasty habit---oh well, there's nothing in the pipe anyway. Ben's thoughts drift to contemplating filling the pipe with bubble-fluid; ahhh, the possibilities...)

 

[Evangelion]

I see nothing here that requires the Holy Spirit to be God Himself.

 

[Ben johnson]

I see nothing here that requires the Holy Spirit to be God Himself.

The question becomes, "Is the Holy Spirit, NOT-GOD"? I think it would be impossible to contend that the Holy Spirit is not-God. But what we are trying to discern, is whether He is a separate PERSON from the Father. And if He can be shown to be a SEPARATE PERSON, then we must admit that God exists in more than one person. It then becomes no-reach-at-all to understand, that Jesus could ALSO be a separate PERSON of ONE GOD.

We have: "God-the-FATHER, Jehovah, YHWH";
We have: "Holy-Spirit, GOD, SENT by the Father/Jehovah/YHWH";
What is the conflict with, "JESUS---GOD, became flesh, LIKE the Son of God, AS the only begotten of the Father"?

ALL THINGS were made through Christ---and apart from Him was nothing made that was made. NOTHING---Jesus could not have been made, for He would have been made apart from JESUS. ALL THINGS were made by Jesus...

To say, to suit a theory, that he was a co-equal part of an all-powerful, eternal "Godhead" with infinite knowledge and wisdom, and at the same time a striving, praying, learning, mortal man is to take all meaning out of words.

"...Jesus, although He existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God to be robbery, but He laid aside His privileges, taking the form of a (Human) bond-servent, and (as such) being made in the likeness of men; and being found in the APPEARANCE of a man, He humbled Himself to death---even death on a cross." Philip2:5-8

Jesus did not consider equality with God, to be robbery...

 

[Evangelion]

Ben -

The question becomes, "Is the Holy Spirit, NOT-GOD"?

And as far as I'm concerned, the answer is a resounding "No."

I think it would be impossible to contend that the Holy Spirit is not-God.

Why?

But what we are trying to discern, is whether He is a separate PERSON from the Father.

I'll give you a "No" for that one as well.

And if He can be shown to be a SEPARATE PERSON, then we must admit that God exists in more than one person.

See above.

It then becomes no-reach-at-all to understand, that Jesus could ALSO be a separate PERSON of ONE GOD.

No, that's another subject entirely. The two are not necessarily correlated. Indeed, they are not even logically equivalent.

 

[Ben johnson]

I'll give you a "No" for that one as well.

Just so neither you nor I are confused, answering "NO" means that you agree that the Holy Spirit is GOD.

I'll give you a "No" for that one as well.

In John14 (as I quoted above) the FATHER will SEND the Holy Spirit. Do you really believe that Jesus was saying: "I will ask the Father to send you a helper, He will send you the Holy Spirit---which is to say He will send HIMSELF"... Is that how you read it?

JEHOVAH-YHWH will indwell us? JEHOVAH is the Holy Spirit?

No, that's another subject entirely. The two are not necessarily correlated. Indeed, they are not even logically equivalent.

'Course not. I'm simply saying that by establishing the Holy Spirit as a separate PERSON of God, and I don't see how you can avoid this---why would Jesus ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit if Jesus meant the Father would SEND HIMSELF?!)---by establishing the HS as a separate PERSON of God, then we must admit that one GOD has more than one PERSON. It then is no-reach-at-all to understand that the "TWO-PERSON-GOD", is really "THREE-PERSON-GOD".

If the Holy Spirit is a separate person of God, the God is PLURAL---just as He is described in Genesis 1:26. "And GOD (singular) said let US (plural) make man in OUR (plural) image (singular)"...

 

[Evangelion]

Hi Ben. I think we may have crossed our wires earlier, but I'm sure that "we can work it out", as the song says.

Just so neither you nor I are confused, answering "NO" means that you agree that the Holy Spirit is GOD.

Oh! Well, I didn't see that this was what you were saying at all!




You had said:

The question becomes, "Is the Holy Spirit, NOT-GOD"?

And I answered "No."




You had also said:

But what we are trying to discern, is whether He is a separate PERSON from the Father.

And I answered "No."




You had also said:

It then becomes no-reach-at-all to understand, that Jesus could ALSO be a separate PERSON of ONE GOD.

And I answered "No, that's another subject entirely. The two are not necessarily correlated. Indeed, they are not even logically equivalent."




Now you say:

In John14 (as I quoted above) the FATHER will SEND the Holy Spirit. Do you really believe that Jesus was saying: "I will ask the Father to send you a helper, He will send you the Holy Spirit---which is to say He will send HIMSELF"... Is that how you read it?

No, that's not how I read it. I read it as God sending His Holy Spirit. I see nothing here which indicates that the Holy Spirit is a literal person, nor do I see anything here which indicates that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, nor do I see anything here which indicates that the Holy Spirit is a literal person who is also part of the Godhead.

JEHOVAH-YHWH will indwell us?

No.

JEHOVAH is the Holy Spirit?

No.

'Course not. I'm simply saying that by establishing the Holy Spirit as a separate PERSON of God, and I don't see how you can avoid this---

Why don't you think I can avoid it?

why would Jesus ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit if Jesus meant the Father would SEND HIMSELF?!)---

Well, I agree that this would make no sense at all.

by establishing the HS as a separate PERSON of God

...which you have yet to do.

then we must admit that one GOD has more than one PERSON.

Yes, that would logically follow, if you could vindicate your initial premise.

It then is no-reach-at-all to understand that the "TWO-PERSON-GOD", is really "THREE-PERSON-GOD".

Yes, that might also follow, but not necessarily. It would have to be proved on its own merits.

If the Holy Spirit is a separate person of God

*snip*

But that's the big "If", isn't it? That's exactly what you need to prove first.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi Ben. I think we may have crossed our wires earlier, but I'm sure that "we can work it out", as the song says

...but, doesn't the SONG say, "We can work it out"---IF you see it MY WAY??? (You DO know that I'm teasing you???)

No, that's not how I read it. I read it as God sending His Holy Spirit. I see nothing here which indicates that the Holy Spirit is a literal person, nor do I see anything here which indicates that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, nor do I see anything here which indicates that the Holy Spirit is a literal person who is also part of the Godhead.

Of course Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. But I'm not understanding what you think the Holy Spirit is. How do you define the word, "PERSON"?

In Eph4:30, it says "do not grieve the Holy Spirit"---does this not mean that the HS can THINK? Is the HS not sentient (self-aware, capable of intelligent thought)?

In Acts 5:3-4, Peter says: "Why have you lied to the Holy Spirit? You have not lied to men but to GOD." Is this not further evidence that the Holy Spirit is conscious?

If the Holy Spirit is a conscious, sentient being, then it seems we have only two choices:

1. The Holy Spirit is Jehovah-Himself
2. The Holy Spirit is a different person

...but a person the HS must be, else He cannot be "grieved", He cannot be "lied to".

]Yes, that might also follow, but not necessarily. It would have to be proven on its own merits.

Which number above is true? Is the Holy Spirit, Jehovah? (You and I agree He is not). Do we agree that the HS is sentient, capable of thinking amd feeling? If so, then He is a person. If He is not a person of God, then who is He?

 

[unitedistand]

The Rauch Ha Kodesh is not Yahweh, but he is in unity with the Yahweh.

Just as Yashua is in unity with Yahweh. They're three, yet they're one.

 

[Evangelion]

Hi Ben. I appreciate your good humour.

Of course Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.

Glad we agree on this much, at least.

But I'm not understanding what you think the Holy Spirit is.

If you click on the link in my signature line, you'll find out exactly what I believe. But just to get it out of the way, I believe that the Holy Spirit is God's power - not God Himself, and definitely not a person.

How do you define the word, "PERSON"?

An intelligent, sentient, living being with self-awareness.

In Eph4:30, it says "do not grieve the Holy Spirit"---does this not mean that the HS can THINK? Is the HS not sentient (self-aware, capable of intelligent thought)?

Nope. It's pure personification - nothing more.

In Acts 5:3-4, Peter says: "Why have you lied to the Holy Spirit? You have not lied to men but to GOD." Is this not further evidence that the Holy Spirit is conscious?

Nope. The one who was lied to, was Peter - and he spoke with the authority of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit with which he had been blessed. So God is "lied to" by proxy, and the Holy Spirit is "lied to" in a figurative sense. To lie to a man inspired by the Holy Spirit, is to lie to God.

If the Holy Spirit is a conscious, sentient being, then it seems we have only two choices:

1. The Holy Spirit is Jehovah-Himself
2. The Holy Spirit is a different person

Yes, "If the Holy Spirit is a conscious, sentient being", one of these two points would logically follow. But I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is as you say.

...but a person the HS must be, else He cannot be "grieved", He cannot be "lied to".

No. The book of Proverbs tells us that wisdom (characterised as a woman) dwells with prudence, and calls out to men on the street. We could, therefore, argue that wisdom must necessarily be a literal feminine person, else "she" could not "dwell with prudence" and call out to men on the street.

And yet, we know that this is not literally true.

quote:
Yes, that might also follow, but not necessarily. It would have to be proven on its own merits.

Which number above is true?

Neither.

Is the Holy Spirit, Jehovah?

No.

(You and I agree He is not).

Wow! Are you telling me that you don't believe that the Holy Spirit is Yahweh? That's refreshing. Are you a Trinitarian?

Do we agree that the HS is sentient, capable of thinking amd feeling?

No.

If so, then He is a person.

That's a big "if."

If He is not a person of God, then who is He?

The Holy Spirit is not a literal "he", but merely an "it."

 

[Ben johnson]

The Holy Spirit speaks in Acts 1:16, 21:11, 28:25, Heb3:7.

The Holy Spirit is a witness of events in Acts 5:31.

The Holy Spirit encourages in Acts 9:31.

The Holy Sirit sends men in Acts 13:4.

The Holy Spirit fellowships with us in 2Cor13:14.

The Holy Spirit partners with us ("Metochos"---partners), in Heb6:4.

The Holy Spirit speaks, and is called a "HE" in Hebrews 10:16 (15-17).

I could give you dozens of verses that address the Holy Spirit with "HO" or "HOS", as in who---but it would take someone more skilled than I in Greek to convince you it was "WHO" rather than "WHICH". Yet all the Bible translators (who ARE more skilled Greek scholars than us!), translate verses like 1Cor6:19 and Eph1:13 and 2Tim1:14 (and many others), as: "The Holy Spirit, WHO..."

I don't think Scripture supports your assertion, that The Holy Spirit is not a literal "he", but merely an "it."

 

[Evangelion]

Well, like I said, that fits in very nicely with the consistent theme of personification in the OT & NT. You're just reading a whole lot more into it, IMHO.

BTW, my point about wisdom and prudence still stands.

 

[Ben johnson]

BTW, my point about wisdom and prudence still stands.

BUt where has it ever been said that "wisdom" or "prudence" was (were???) sent by God as a helper? Were to wisdom or prudence speak? Or fellowship or partner with us?

I think the verses lean so far over to "person", that they cannot accomodate "personification".

Hi Ben. I appreciate your good humour.

If you can't laugh, what's the point? I KNOW God has a sense of humor...



(Knock on the door, evening of the sixth day.)
God: "Come in!"
Little angel: "Excuse me, Sir---I found these leftover animal parts. A duck bill and some webbed feet, some fur, some mammal parts... What do you want to do with them?"
God: "What's your name, son?"
Little angel: "Platypus, Sir; why?"

 

[Evangelion]

LOL! I hadn't heard that one before!

OK, let's see...

BUt where has it ever been said that "wisdom" or "prudence" was (were???) sent by God as a helper?

Nowhere, but who cares? The bottom line is that they are said to do things that only humans do. That's exactly how your "Holy Spirit" argument works, remember?

Were to wisdom or prudence speak?

Right here:

• 
  Proverbs 1:20-33.
  Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
  She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
  How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
  Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
  Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
  But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
  I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
  When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
  Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
  For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
  They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
  Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
  For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
  But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Wisdom cries aloud, utters her voice in the streets, calls, stretches forth her hand, laughs, mocks, and pours out her spirit. Where are we told that the Holy Spirit does any of this? Nowhere!

She is also explicitly referred to as a literal person - and we are instructed to talk with her:

• 
  Proverbs 7:4
  Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:

She has physical characteristics and human attributes:

• 
  Proverbs 8:1-7.
  Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
  She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
  She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
  Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
  O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
  Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
  For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

And guess what happens if you despise wisdom, Ben? You die! (Just like "lying to the Holy Spirit...")

Or fellowship or partner with us?

Well, wisdom dwells with prudence...

• 
  Proverbs 8:12
  I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge

... but as you can see from, my previous quotations, she's invited us to join her. Now, how would this be possible unless wisdom is a literal person? And how can wisdom "find out knowledge" unless she is a literal person?

Wisdom is also busy. She does things that only a literal woman would be capable of:

• 
  Provebs 9:15.
  Wisdom hath built her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
  She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.
  She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,
  Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
  Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

Where are we told that the Holy Spirit does any of this? Nowhere!

So anyway, that's a pretty long list of complex anthropomorphisms, Ben - and they're a lot more explicit than the ones you've presented for the Holy Spirit! Far more comprehensive!

I think the verses lean so far over to "person", that they cannot accomodate "personification".

That's your opinion, and your opinion is your prerogative.

My mileage varies considerably.

 

[Future Man]

Hello Evangelion and God bless-

>

If you click on the link in my signature line, you'll find out exactly what I believe. But just to get it out of the way, I believe that the Holy Spirit is God's power - not God Himself, and definitely not a person.

Could you clarify something for me?

Would you say the 'Spirit of God' is likened unto the 'flesh of man'? Thereby being the same "stuff" (for lack of a better word) as 'God'. Technically this makes the Holy Spirit "God" in the qualitive sense.
Of course until I know if you agree with that, the only other option I forsee is something likened unto 'psychic power' [spoon benders and the like] or that <shudder> "active force/electricity" theology of the JWs.

Nope. The one who was lied to, was Peter - and he spoke with the authority of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit with which he had been blessed. So God is "lied to" by proxy, and the Holy Spirit is "lied to" in a figurative sense. To lie to a man inspired by the Holy Spirit, is to lie to God.

Read again:
>
In Acts 5:3-4, Peter says: "Why have you lied 1.) TO the Holy Spirit? You have not lied TO men but 2.) TO God."
>
I think the main point is that the 'Holy Spirit' in the first half of the verse is identified as being 'God' in the second. The issue of *who* was 'lied to' is not quite as relevant
>
(Although to reach your conclusion requires a bit of reading into the text, not to mention ignoring the fact that the passage specifically ruled out 'man' ).
>

No. The book of Proverbs tells us that wisdom (characterised as a woman) dwells with prudence, and calls out to men on the street. We could, therefore, argue that wisdom must necessarily be a literal feminine person, else "she" could not "dwell with prudence" and call out to men on the street.

And yet, we know that this is not literally true.

I rarely go for the "personification" route when arguing for the personality of the Holy Spirit. Although I do like to mention that the HS is almost *always* "personified" .

I don't think Scripture supports your assertion, that The Holy Spirit is not a literal "he", but merely an "it."

The baby Jesus, women, children, and angels are "its" in the scriptures. Don't worry about this aspect.

And guess what happens if you despise wisdom, Ben? You die!

I would make a comment on the consequences of rejecting Jesus Christ and the parallel to Wisdom demonstrated, but that would be off topic.

>

God bless--FM