Do you believe if Christ came today you'll be saved?

[Christ is Lord]

Then why suggest the inappropriate content addict, the smoker, and the person with a temper (or hate) is saved by a belief alone in Jesus?

I should have chose my wording better. What I meant is that you struggle with that sin (i.e you're trying to change and have had success in the past but sometimes you stumble and you get up again). Some people, tend to think because of that or any sin they struggle with if Christ were to come today they won't be saved.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I mean, why do you think the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness? (Matthew 25:30). Why do you think that we are told to follow after holiness, of which without it, we will not see the Lord? (See Hebrews 12:14).

Following after holiness is the evidence of true conversion. An unconverted sinner has no interest in following after holiness. One has to be born again first, and that is on the basis of faith alone in Christ. But he doesn't stop there, because faith alone is just the entrance to eternal life. Once through the entrance, the convert has to walk the journey of holiness. John Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress is good for describing the Christian's journey of sanctification and holiness until he reaches the end of his life.

 

[Daniel C]

One preacher said that when he finds himself standing before the Lord, all he will be able to say is, "I saw your promises in your Word and I believed them, and trusted you to honour them." I believe that man would be embraced by the Lord and acknowledged as a true believer.

I would agree with that statement by the preacher. I think the problem comes with many people by two ways:

1) They misunderstand what the promise is and get a distorted view of the Gospel.

2) They don't fully trust God and subsequently rely on their own justification

Both errors.

We are saved by faith (only) by receiving the eternal gift of Gods salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

N

James 2:14-17

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James is writing to those who are already believers who need to show their faith by doing righteous works.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

So it is by Grace you are saved

This is the basis of conversion to Christ.

noticing the definition of Grace:

Divine grace is a theological term present in many religions. It has been defined as the divine influence which operates in humans to regenerate and sanctify, to inspire virtuous impulses, and to impart strength to endure trial and resist temptation;[1] and as an individual virtue or excellence of divine origin

Converted believers need the on-going grace of God to receive the strength and resolve to walk in the Spirit on the road of sanctification and holiness. His grace and strength through the Holy Spirit within us, helps us to do what we often don't have the strength and will to do ourselves, because of the presence of sin and the temptations that the devil brings to damage our faith.

 

[devin553344]

I am not insulting anyone's faith. All I am doing is saying what the Council of Trent teaches. I did a mastorate paper in Catholic Theology so I am totally aware of Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, and it is definitely faith plus works. But I have also done an in-depth study of what Paul taught in Galatians, and he is adamant that the gospel he preaches is faith alone apart from works. The Council of Trent totally opposes that.

So all I am saying is how it is. My wife and her family were educated in Catholic schools, and I have a photo of her first communion in her local Catholic church, so I do have respect for the Catholic church and Catholic Christians.

So, stating the differences I see in Catholic salvation theology and Reformed theology and what I see in the book of Galatians is fair discussion and debate on this General Theology forum. I would not be having this debate on the Catholic forum for obvious reasons.

So there is no need to feel insulted, because that is not my intention. All I am saying is that if you prefer to abide by Catholic salvation theology, then I respect that, but it does not stop me stating what I believe is the truth that I see in the book of Galatians.

The point I found in quoting the definition of Divine Grace is that Divine Grace causes good works, this is why faith without works is dead. At least that's how I currently understand it. Faith is good, but without the Divine Grace of God there is no good fruit:

43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Referencing the fruits of the Holy Spirit from Galatians 5:22-23

 

[Daniel C]

Most of Christianity believes in Faith Alone and or OSAS.
Sure sounds easy.
But Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that finds it.
The Pharisees thought they were saved because they were the Promised people, and or that they were children of Abraham.

For the Pharisees said to Jesus, "Abraham is our father."
But Jesus replied, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham." (See John 8:39).

Many today are claiming to be children of God, but they are not doing the works of God. See 1 John 3:10, and John 3:20.

History is repeating itself.

I would agree eternal security sounds easy in principle, but most people don't trust God enough to take him at his word and suspend their own judgment of what the path of salvation looks like. Most people try to hold some authority back for themselves rather than taking the free gift of salvation from the creator and hand over total control to him.

Easy on paper,not easy in practice.


In regard to this: '' But Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that finds it.''
What makes you think this is speaking to legalism? I see no mention of it. Would it be fair to say that is your personal interpretation?

 

[timewerx]

''Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?''


Where is the appeal to based on faith?

The fruit of real faith is love - Galatians 5:6

Love in truth and in actions - 1 John 3:18

The opposite of love is hatred and sin.

These guys, despite their wonderful works, continued on a life of habitual sinning (works of lawlessness).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would agree eternal security sounds easy in principle, but most people don't trust God enough to take him at his word and suspend their own judgment of what the path of salvation looks like. Most people try to hold some authority back for themselves rather than taking the free gift of salvation from the creator and hand over total control to him.

Easy on paper,not easy in practice.


In regard to this: '' But Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that finds it.''
What makes you think this is speaking to legalism? I see no mention of it. Would it be fair to say that is your personal interpretation?

Of course it is not easy to get to and through the narrow way, because Satan and his demons are there to oppose the seeker all the way to try and talk him out of it. If you read Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress, you will see that the man trying to flee from the city of destruction encountered a number of obstacles before he was able to get to the narrow gate. He slipped into a bog and couldn't get out until someone came along and helped him. Then a guy called Worldly Wiseman tried to talk him out of it, and then he couldn't find the gate and needed Evangelist to show him the way to it.

You will be seeing for yourself when you are sharing the gospel to sinners, how difficult it is to get them to see the truth of it, and to persuade them to believe in Christ. You speak to 100 and 99 of them seem to be totally blind to it, and then the 100th one responds and comes to church with you and perhaps receives Christ if the preacher preaches the clear gospel.

Then, as you carry on reading Pilgrims Progress, you see the dangers and traps that are there on the road to the Celestial City, and how Christian may not have made it without help.

It is legalism for a person to try and combine his own good deeds with faith in Christ in order to be converted to Christ.

But, it is ignorance and foolishness in a person who says he has faith (in other words, been converted to Christ by faith), and yet has no desire for holiness by being aware of God's holy Law and ordering his life by its standards.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The fruit of real faith is love - Galatians 5:6

Love in truth and in actions - 1 John 3:18

The opposite of love is hatred and sin.

These guys, despite their wonderful works, continued on a life of habitual sinning (works of lawlessness).

True believers have the attitude, "Lord, forgive me, a sinner". The thief on the cross acknowledged that he was paying the penalty for his sins, but acknowledged that Jesus was totally innocent, and then asked, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom". Basically, he was saying, "Lord, forgive me, a sinner", and that got him into Paradise instead of hell.

 

[timewerx]

True believers have the attitude, "Lord, forgive me, a sinner". The thief on the cross acknowledged that he was paying the penalty for his sins, but acknowledged that Jesus was totally innocent, and then asked, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom". Basically, he was saying, "Lord, forgive me, a sinner", and that got him into Paradise instead of hell.

The thief is about to die when he repented, he didn't get the chance to show the fruits of repentance. But he did have a change of heart and it was genuine. Thus, he was saved.

Zacchaeus on the otherhand was quite alive when he repented had a chance to make up for his sins and change his ways and he did and Jesus declared salvation to his house.

If the thief didn't die and lives on, I don't think he'll be returning to a life of crime.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you think God was telling the truth in His word when He said, "If the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He will raise your mortal body when Jesus comes again."

Yes - and He was telling the truth when He said in Matt 18 -- "So shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart" regarding "Forgiveness revoked"

And he was telling the truth when He said - you have been "severed from Christ, fallen from grace" as in Gal 5:4 -- that's "salvation lost"

Any time you see the warning given to the saints .. those "who stand only by your faith" Rom 11 that is of the form "do not be arrogant but fear for if He did not spare them he may not spare you either" -- it is God "telling the truth" again and warning about very real danger regarding salvation lost.

Because a God reminded us - by telling the truth in Jeremiah 18 -- all God's promises are conditional.

7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it

Spoken by God Himself - who "cannot lie"

It doesn't say that He might have promises be conditional --

"It does not say He might raise your mortal body if you continue to be a good person. "

"to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off" Rom 11

spoken "after" the resurrection of Christ

"7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; " Rom 2

spoken "after" the resurrection of Christ

In 1 Cor 6 Paul says that if you think you are going to heaven no matter what you are actually doing in real life - a rude awakening is coming.

In 1 Cor 6 Paul says to the believers "do not be deceived"
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

In Matt 7 Jesus says it is not those who "say the right words" that go to heaven... (for those who accept the Bible truth that Christians listen to the teaching of Christ)

 

[BobRyan]

The thief is about to die when he repented, he didn't get the chance to show the fruits of repentance.

Actually you see two contrasting "fruits" in the case of the repentant thief on the cross and his partner in crime - the stubbornly unrepentant thief on the other side of the cross. One confesses Christ openly before his persecutors and tormentors... while the other continues in rebellion to his very last breath.

 

[Daniel C]

The fruit of real faith is love - Galatians 5:6

Love in truth and in actions - 1 John 3:18

The opposite of love is hatred and sin.

These guys, despite their wonderful works, continued on a life of habitual sinning (works of lawlessness).

It doesn't say that though. You can't answer the question directly that I asked you which challenged your claim so there's no point talking about this further.

You are creating your own Gospel and by your own admission don't know if you'd be welcomed into Gods kingdom,so your salvation plan is unreliable.

 

[timewerx]

It doesn't say that though.

The verses I quote said what it said

 

[Daniel C]

Of course it is not easy to get to and through the narrow way, because Satan and his demons are there to oppose the seeker all the way to try and talk him out of it. If you read Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress, you will see that the man trying to flee from the city of destruction encountered a number of obstacles before he was able to get to the narrow gate. He slipped into a bog and couldn't get out until someone came along and helped him. Then a guy called Worldly Wiseman tried to talk him out of it, and then he couldn't find the gate and needed Evangelist to show him the way to it.

You will be seeing for yourself when you are sharing the gospel to sinners, how difficult it is to get them to see the truth of it, and to persuade them to believe in Christ. You speak to 100 and 99 of them seem to be totally blind to it, and then the 100th one responds and comes to church with you and perhaps receives Christ if the preacher preaches the clear gospel.

Then, as you carry on reading Pilgrims Progress, you see the dangers and traps that are there on the road to the Celestial City, and how Christian may not have made it without help.

It is legalism for a person to try and combine his own good deeds with faith in Christ in order to be converted to Christ.

But, it is ignorance and foolishness in a person who says he has faith (in other words, been converted to Christ by faith), and yet has no desire for holiness by being aware of God's holy Law and ordering his life by its standards.

What do you think God desires from his saved and sealed people? What is the work of God?

I say the main duty is soul winning through Evangelism,the unsaved cannot save themselves and the greatest love for our fellow man is to show them God, so they receive the free eternal gift of salvation.

I don't believe spending our entire physical lives ''perfecting'' our spirituality is what God wants from us. We are fallen by our nature and nothing we can do will ever change that until the final trumpet.I think the work he commanded is to save his children:

''And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.''

 

[aiki]

I should have chose my wording better. What I meant is that you struggle with that sin (i.e you're trying to change and have had success in the past but sometimes you stumble and you get up again). Some people, tend to think because of that or any sin they struggle with if Christ were to come today they won't be saved.

This thinking is the product of a serious misunderstanding about how one is saved and by what (or who, actually). God's acceptance of us is not based upon our flawed, weak, stumbling efforts to be righteous but upon the perfect, finished, atoning work of Christ at Calvary. With Christ, God is always satisfied, and so those who are in him, who have been clothed in his righteousness, find an unwavering acceptance by God. When the genuinely born-again Christian realizes that God's acceptance of them never alters no matter what they do, they begin to come free of the fear and self-effort that stifles true fellowship with God and enter into the deeper experience of Him that is the product of resting in Christ and knowing him to be one's redemption, and justification, and sanctification (1 Corinthians 1:30) and life (John 15:5; Philippians 1:21; Colossians 3:4).

 

[Christ is Lord]

This thinking is the product of a serious misunderstanding about how one is saved and by what (or who, actually). God's acceptance of us is not based upon our flawed, weak, stumbling efforts to be righteous but upon the perfect, finished, atoning work of Christ at Calvary. With Christ, God is always satisfied, and so those who are in him, who have been clothed in his righteousness, find an unwavering acceptance by God. When the genuinely born-again Christian realizes that God's acceptance of them never alters no matter what they do, they begin to come free of the fear and self-effort that stifles true fellowship with God and enter into the deeper experience of Him that is the product of resting in Christ and knowing him to be one's redemption, and justification, and sanctification (1 Corinthians 1:30) and life (John 15:5; Philippians 1:21; Colossians 3:4).

Amen to that

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I would agree eternal security sounds easy in principle, but most people don't trust God enough to take him at his word and suspend their own judgment of what the path of salvation looks like. Most people try to hold some authority back for themselves rather than taking the free gift of salvation from the creator and hand over total control to him.

Eternal Security is not biblical not only because it cannot be supported by the Bible (Note: Anyone can easily refute this belief simply by looking at the surrounding verses in most cases) but because it leads to immorality (Whether that person wants that to happen or not). For if you tell a child or new believer (that you will never see again) that all their future sin is forgiven them, they can easily be led to think that you are teaching the same belief that George Sodini taught. George Sodini believed all his future sins were paid for. He even stated this in his own suicide letter and his own confession to his future crime of committing mass murder. George believed that he would be saved despite his future sins he was about to commit when he was writing his own suicide letter. The crazy thing is. One of the deacons (of his church) said he was still saved despite what he did, as well. His church did not condemn him. They believed the same thing he did.

George Sodini - Eternal Security Proponent - Mass Murderer and Suicide Victim.

Of course, they take believing in Jesus alone for salvation very seriously. This is something the rest of you don't do. You believe that works need to be there to show a true faith. You need something else besides a belief in Jesus alone in order to be saved. Call it regneration that leads to works and holiness or whatever you like, but you must admit that there has to be some level of morality within God's Kingdom because God is good and holy. But if one believes one is saved by a belief alone in Jesus, then it does not matter what you do. Jesus says we will know a tree by its fruit. If a particular belief leads to wrong thinking then it is not true.

Easy on paper,not easy in practice.

Right, because it is not biblical.

In regard to this: '' But Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that finds it.''
What makes you think this is speaking to legalism? I see no mention of it. Would it be fair to say that is your personal interpretation?

Everyone has a different understanding on what Legalism means. Surely a man can wrongfully say to a woman that they do not need to be married officially on paper because that would be legalism. A person can justify speeding in a school zone (despite the children) because that would be legalism to obey the letter of the traffic laws. When folks say things like "Legalism" usually they are promoting some form of lawlessness or wrong activity or sin. Anyways, if you were to re-read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), you will notice that Jesus was teaching righteous instruction and or in doing good vs. what popular Christianity teaches (Which is believe in the finished work of Christ alone).

In fact, when you read Matthew 7:14 (narrow is the way that leads unto life), this is in context to Jesus also saying, that not everyone who says unto Him "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21). Matthew 7:14 is in context to Jesus saying to those believers who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (or sin). Matthew 7:14 is in context to Jesus saying that if anyone does not do what He says, they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

If God commands you to do something, that is not legalism. Legalism is when we decide to make up our own rules that is outside of God's commands. Legalism would also be something that does not involve God's grace or attempts to minimize His grace in some way. Surely believers can confess of their sins and be forgiven of them (1 John 1:9). But in Eternal Security there is no real need to confess of sin to be forgiven. One is already saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. So one can kick back on a beach and step over the poor guy and live life to the fullest because they have a belief alone on Jesus.

Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. So God's grace teaches legalism? Is that what Paul is saying? No. God's grace leads to obedience to His commands. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Many are trying to justify the idea that they can break God's commands in some way with the thinking they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. But Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). I ask the Eternal Security Proponent: Do you love Jesus enough to keep His commandments? Many who are of the OSAS belief that I have talked with say that they can not overcome grievous sin in this life and that they will always sin in some way.

 

[public hermit]

Maybe it helps to keep in mind that the same One who is to be our judge is the same One who gave his life for us. Grace doesn't come to an end once we start having faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Amen to that

Well, I strongly disagree with what he said. This is not how one properly applies the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice to their life. The true application of the imputation of Christ's sacrifice is given to us in 1 John 1:7. In short, 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. What is walking in the light? 1 John 2:9-11 implies strongly that walking in the light is loving your brother. Check the passage for yourself. So you have to love your brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin in your life. For John says that whoever hates his brother they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

I mean, stop and think a moment. Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Jesus never justified the thinking that He could sin and still be in God's Kingdom one day. So if Jesus never justified a sin and still be saved type belief, then we should not have that kind of mind or thinking, either.