Do you believe if Christ came today you'll be saved?

[Bible Highlighter]

No more so than the sins of yesterday you or I committed some 1900+ years after He paid the price. Or for that matter the sins of some future person who gives their life to Christ. Your logic is flawed to say the least.

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29).

The Lamb of God takes away the sins of the entire world. Does that mean everyone is saved? Surely not. This means that sin needs to be forgiven individually and by the correct means on our part. 1 John 1:7 gives you the proper method on how to do this. It says we have to WALK in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, so the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11.

Excuse me - could you please tell me what "not that big a deal" means to you? At any rate - when have you ever heard a born again believer say such a thing?

My conversation with Eternal Security proponents gives me the impression that they are not taking sin as seriously as the Bible teaches it (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46 and then check out the following posts here, here, and here.).

I, and every believer in eternal security I have ever met and talked with, believes and teaches that everyone of us will give an account for every word and deed done in the flesh - whether before being born again or afterward.

The consequences of sin is far worse than you think, friend.

Revelation 22 says,

14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Pride. As in you.

That was not diminishing the eternal gift of salvation like you've been doing,that was discussing who should be the recipients of it,first.

That's ok keep going,salvation to you probably is worth as much as a beat up ford.

I will rejoice in God my Savior.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is why I reject works salvation. You are an advocate saying how important it is not to sin and keep commandments and yet you clearly sin,so why should we take what you say seriously?

My life is not the standard. The Bible is the standard. Whether I lived like a saint, and or I faltered, I do not think that such a thing is enough to convince the Eternal Security Proponent. God's Word or the verses is all they should need to convince them of the truth. In fact, I know it is enough because many have become ex-Eternal Security Proponents over the years. Granted, Eternal Security is still the popular view in Christianity today. But Jesus said narrow is the way and few be there that find it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I’m in my mid 70’s now and I became born again around a little campfire at a Baptist youth camp out when I was just 13 years old.

As a young boy just entering puberty, I struggled with sins from the jump – even though there was and is no doubt that I had truly been born again on that special evening in the summer of 1959,

I don’t remember many sermons I listened to in church after that. But somehow I got the idea that every time I did or entertained thoughts about certain things I was lost until I confessed and I got saved again through repentance. That struggle to supposedly “stay saved” was the most difficult time of my life until then. Then my Father died and I became bitter toward the Lord.

I suppose that played a part in my leaving the faith and eventually becoming agnostic. But mostly it was the struggle to stay saved by refraining from sin and or confessing and coming to salvation again and again that convince me that this was no way to live my life and I would do it no longer.

I lived a life of profound sin until I was 30 or so when the Lord drug me back into a life in the Kingdom of God after I kicked against the goads for quite some time leading up to that.

The first thing I determined to understand about Christianity was what the scriptures taught about “how one stay’s saved” and makes it to Heaven. I embarked on the most important theological quest I have entered into in the last 6 decades of study of the Bible and teaching God’s Word to others.

I have revisited that subject many times since then – particularly when challenged in debates such as this one. But I have not changed my opinion concerning how one gets saved, stays saved, and finally makes it to Heaven one bit.

It has been my experience that not only does a belief in eternal security not lead to a life of sin – the opposite belief often leads to a life far away from a supposedly vengeful God who places a person on the throne with His Son in the Kingdom of God, kicks him off when He fails to live up to some standard, and places him back on when and if he is contrite enough and trying hard enough to be saved – again and again and again and again and again and again until the day he dies (hopefully in a state of grace when he passes over to the other side).

I have had many victories over sin in my life. But, I have to admit that there is one particular sin that has troubled me since that first day I was saved. It has troubled me less and less as I age – but it’s still lurking there ready to raise its ugly head when I let my guard down.

Nothing would make me happier than not to sin again in any way – ever in my life.

But the day I sin no more in any way I kind of think that the Lord will take me home because I will likely grow no more. I will have maxed out In the sanctification process and He will have no more to use me for in my old age .

But I pray with all my heart that the day I sin no more and I feel personal pride because I have finally arrived at being worthy of Heaven -- and most particularly if I feel that my victory over committed sin has somehow contributed to the work of my Savior God when He suffered and shed His blood at Calvary for my sins – that God will strike me dead because I will have sinned once more and that sin will have been more grievous than all my other many sins combined.

P.S.
if anyone here has had more victory over sin that I have or has managed to not sin at all - I'm very happy for them.

But if anyone here preaches salvation by works - I am afraid of them. They are preaching another gospel, which is no gospel at all.

They have fallen from grace.

Again, you have to deal with 1 John 1:7.

Also, if there was a law passed tomorrow in your state that says that there is no more speed limit on the highways, do you think more people will drive faster on the highways? You betcha. This also means more increased accidents on the highways and lack of regard for human life (While driving), as well.

In short, if one knows that they are forgiven of all sin, the believer can indulge in inappropriate content a little or lie a little or hate others a little and they can quickly pay lip service to God that they are sorry but they can keep doing such sins because they don't need to worry about their eternal status with God. They can keep sinning on some small level and still be saved. That is the danger of Eternal Security. I mean, just look at all the sins that the New Testament condemns, and ask yourself if you will ever overcome them in this life. Chances are there is no real need or worry for you to do so. There is no real motivation to do so. You can just believe in Jesus and not lift a finger for anyone and not even think much about God and just live your life as you please. Eternal Security is guaranteed ticket and nothing you can do can undo that salvation. But that is not what the Bible teaches. Just bring forth an Eternal Security verse, and I can point to you the context that refutes it in most cases. Furthermore, the Bible has many warnings against sinning and or not doing what Jesus says (and "Yes" it does involve a loss of salvation).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Daniel C

The difference is sort of like a drunk who truly desires to overcome their sin of alcoholism and so they join an alcohol free program to overcome their alcoholism. Sure, they may stumble on occasion, but the key point here is that they actually will overcome their sin of alcoholism in time.

Then there is another drunk. They join the alcohol free program to make a family member happy but they have no intention of giving up their demon within the bottle. In fact, they do not even believe that overcoming alcoholism is possible for their life. They think they cannot overcome such a sin. They are trapped to their sin and it destroys them. They have the wrong mindset towards sin.

 

[His student]

Again, you have to deal with 1 John 1:7.

I deal with it every day of my life.

.....Chances are there is no real need or worry for you to do so.................. You can just believe in Jesus and not lift a finger for anyone and not even think much about God and just live your life as you please.......

"Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, "Let us do evil that good may result?" Their condemnation is well deserved!" Romans 3:8

...... There is no real motivation to do so........

I'm sure that's been addressed pretty clearly.

"So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." 2 Corinthians 5:9-11

"For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." Galatians 2:19-21

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I deal with it every day of my life.

I don't see how. How exactly do you believe in walking in the light so that the blood of Jesus cleanses you of all sin? Is not walking in the light considered a work and not a belief?

"Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, "Let us do evil that good may result?" Their condemnation is well deserved!" Romans 3:8

Well, the context is to the Jew and circumcision (See Romans 3:1). Paul was fighting against those who thought they must be circumcised in order to be saved a part of the Old Law or the 613 laws within the Law of Moses as a whole or contract.

There was a popular known heresy at the time that said that you had to be circumcised in order to be saved. This is evident if you were to read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, and Galatians 5:2 (Note: Please hover your cursor over these verses to check them out).

In other words, when Paul said let us do evil that good may come, he was referring to those who wanted to go back to the ceremonial laws (like circumcision) and he was pointing out how his critics who defended "Circumcision Salvationism" were saying that ignoring the command on circumcision in the OT is doing evil so that good may come. But the ceremonial laws from the OT like circumcision, the Saturday Sabbath, and the dietary laws, etc. are no longer binding anymore under the New Covenant. We are under a New Covenant with New Commands. For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. When Paul condemned the Law and or works (generically speaking), he was referring to the the whole of the Law of Moses (the 613). This is not to say that the Moral Law (like do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not covet, etc.) have not carried over into the New Covenant. God's Moral Law began when Adam and Eve received the knowledge of good and evil, and it has always existed since then. In short, Paul is not speaking against the Moral Law or the words of Jesus. For 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing.

It's not a matter of IF Eternal Security leads to a license to sin, I know it is a matter of fact. How so? Well, when an Eternal Security Pastor says to a child or new believer that they are saved, and that no sin can separate them from God and future sin is paid for, it can easily lead them to think that they can sin and still be saved (unless the Pastor fills them in on more details that they cannot live in sin and still be saved). So even if the Eternal Security proponent lives like a saint, if they lead others to think that one can sin and still be saved, then their blood will be on their hands.

Besides, George Sodini, and many others have committed suicide because they believed in Eternal Security. They did not think the sin of suicide would separate them from God.

"So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." 2 Corinthians 5:9-11

In the KJV it says "bad" and not "evil." But even if it is saying "evil" as in reference to grievous sin (like murder, lying, coveting, etc.) then this is referring to the children of the Kingdom who will be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). If such were the case for a believer doing evil, Jesus will say to them to depart from Him because they work iniquity (See: Matthew 7:23). For Matthew 13:41-42 says that Jesus will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (sin) and all who work iniquity (intense sin) and they will cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

"For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." Galatians 2:19-21

What set of laws is Paul talking about?

(a) The Traffic Law.
(b) The Old Written Law of Moses (the 613).
(c) Copyright Law.
(d) New Covenant Law.
(e) All forms of Law.
(f) The Moral Law.​

The correct answer is the Written Law of Moses (the 613). For Paul refers to circumcision in Galatians 2:3, and he says that he did compel them to be circumcised. In fact, Paul says if any man seeks to be circumcised, Christ will profit them nothing (See Galatians 5:2). Nowhere does Paul say that if you seek to not murder, not lie, not steal as a part of being right with God, you have fallen from grace. That is not taught in the Bible. Jesus says the exact opposite. See Matthew 19:17-19, and Luke 10:25-28.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I deal with it every day of my life.

"Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, "Let us do evil that good may result?" Their condemnation is well deserved!" Romans 3:8

I'm sure that's been addressed pretty clearly.

"So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." 2 Corinthians 5:9-11

"For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." Galatians 2:19-21

I mean stop and think for a moment. If you think obedience is a part of salvation, then you would not be speaking against my defense of how we must obey God as a part of salvation. But if you truly believe in doing good as a part of God's grace and I am wrongfully pointing out how you believe that you cannot sin and still be saved on some level (i.e. let us do evil that good may come), then I will be happy to apologize. But in my experience the OSAS Lite Proponent is not in the majority of those who hold to OSAS or Eternal Security. OSAS Lite Proponents believe that you must live holy and confess of sin otherwise you were never born again to begin with. But even this view is wrong because the Bible says that a believer can fall away from the faith. Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. I don't get the impression you believe in OSAS Lite. I have a good friend who believes in it. So I know this version of Eternal Security. It is not biblical, but at least it is not setting out to justify sin on some level. Most versions of Eternal Security set out to justify sin in some way. It's not a matter of debate. It is a fact. I have talked with many over the years who think they can sin and still be saved because of Eternal Security.

 

[Mountainmike]

The apparent paradox is not there if you distinguish "necessary" from " sufficient "

If you accept that no amount of works are sufficient to "earn " salvation then still you believe in salavation by grace through faith.

But that in no way removes " necessity" of doing things because they are ordinances , such as love of neighbour.

In such as sheep and goats, our lord makes clear that those who do not feed the hungry, etc may not make the grade.

Nor are we automatons. Just because we have faith does not alter our free will to do or not do what we are ordered on a daily basis, or indeed faith does not stop us doing evil. We must get up, dust ourselves down, repent and try again.

Paul laments " the good he would do he does not, the evil he would not do , he does"

Our church speaks of formed faith , that is " faith with charity" and on that basis reached understanding on " faith alone " with lutherans .

Because Faith is more than intellectual assent. Even The devil believes Jesus is son of god! So many discussions on faith alone need to recognise definitons of faith.

In the end all we can do is try, and hope on grace, knowing nothing we do can ever be enough.

In short the doctrine of osas - do this one thing, declare Jesus is lord, and then you are saved is clearly unsupportable.

I ask the question because recently it came to my mind. I've heard a number of times when I ask people the question they will say I need to work on x or y. However, doesn't that line of thinking mean that subconsciously you believe in meriting salvation to an extent? If Jesus came today and you think you won't go to heaven because you're smoker, addicted to inappropriate contentography, have an issue with your temper, etc. If that's the case, I believe that deep down you don't believe in salvation by faith alone (I am not knocking on those who don't affirm that). Just a food for thought what do you think?

PS: I am not talking universalism nor am I saying you can live as you want.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Acts 7:52
Which of the prophets did your fathers fail to persecute? They even killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One. And now you are His betrayers and murderers--

The first thing I determined to understand about Christianity was what the scriptures taught about “how one stay’s saved”

How long does a sheep in the wilderness last when surrounded by wolves ?

 

[His student]

It's not a matter of debate. It is a fact.

It sounds as if you've got it all figured out and it's not just a fact for you but has become rather a crusade.

I hope that you have believed on the Lord in a saving way. I'm not convinced that you have. But I hope so.

I sincerely hope to see you on the other side of this life around the throne of God.

 

[His student]

How long does a sheep in the wilderness last when surrounded by wolves ?

I'm not sure your intend here.
But I'll take a stab at it anyway.
43 days - 6 hours - 21 minutes and 16 seconds?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm not sure your intend here.
But I'll take a stab at it anyway.
43 days - 6 hours - 21 minutes and 16 seconds?

OH so close.....
the wolves are often so skiddish, a sheep might be left alone for 21 minutes .... then gobble gobble .....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I lived a life of profound sin until I was 30 or so when the Lord drug me back into a life in the Kingdom of God

The first thing I determined to understand about Christianity was what the scriptures taught about “how one stay’s saved”

How did you 'stay' in the enemy's camp ? Simply by DOING what the enemy wanted, being subject like everyone else to the prince of the power of the air....

Then, once set free from the enemy, how can we stay free from the enemy's power ?
(with man it is impossible)

We continually DO what the Father in heaven directs us to DO. We follow THE SHEPHERD

A sheep left alone is game for the wolves...

A sheep walking in the LIGHT, abiding WITH THE SHEPHERD< is protected by the SHEPHERD, DAILY - continually, ongoing....

 

[His student]

OH so close.....
the wolves are often so skiddish, a sheep might be left alone for 21 minutes .... then gobble gobble .....

A sheep left alone is game for the wolves...

If you are referring to my time in the wilderness - the key word is "alone".

I was not alone.

When I was born again the Lord promised not to leave nor forsake me.

Here I now stand. Thank God He was true to His Word.

If you folks have been born again - that is true for you as it was for me.

If you are not - then good luck out there.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you are referring to my time in the wilderness - the key word is "alone".

I was not alone.

When I was born again the Lord promised not to leave nor forsake me.

Here I now stand. Thank God He was true to His Word.

Amen!
We "Ekklesia" , born again NOT by man's will, not by the will of the flesh,
but born again BY THE WILL OF THE CREATOR IN HEAVEN.....
continue IN UNION with the Son and with the Father DAILY...

yet He does not take our free will from us....

If we <willingly choose to> OR <unwittingly> depart from His protection, we get hurt, and may get lost... just like sheep do ...

In and all through Scripture, healing, life and salvation are ongoing , continual daily things/ experienced/ not "once and that's that" but DAILY....

 

[His student]

If God truly began a good work in anyone here - then I don't need worry for a minute that He will not complete it.

However if anyone has embarked on that work on His own without the crucial first step - then I doubt very much that things will end well unless they retrace their footsteps.

It's getting increasingly difficult for me to tell who has and who hasn't started their supposed Kingdom life in the right way as I talk with people here in the Forum.

Time will tell I supposed - although there are more and more indicators being put forth as people keep talking.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's getting increasingly difficult for me to tell who has and who hasn't started their supposed Kingdom life in the right way as I talk with people here in the Forum.

Yes, it is made that way.
Continue following Jesus and trusting the Father in heaven to accomplish everything concerning salvation in this life and in the life to come, and continue to realize that "nothing is at it seems" in the world from people.....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It sounds as if you've got it all figured out

If there is one topic I know well in the Bible it is Conditional Salvation. I have extensively studied the Scriptures on this topic and I have argued against Eternal Security using the Bible for many years. Most do not use the plain meaning of Scripture to defend their position. Verses either have to go ignored or they will throw out some odd interpretation or thrown down the original languages card (that destroys the meaning in the English). Their interpretation also does not pass the Morality test, as well. This means no actual real world example can be made to defend Eternal Security. But if it is true, it should be easily made into a parable like many of the other spiritual truths in Scripture.

and it's not just a fact for you but has become rather a crusade.

Well, this would be a spiritual fight, and not a physical one. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6:12).

We are told: "you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3). 2 Timothy 4:2 says, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

Jude 1:4 says this:
"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4).

History usually repeats itself. Jude 1:4 is not only true for it's time, but it is for our day, as well. How do we know for sure? Well, 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says this:

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

I hope that you have believed on the Lord in a saving way. I'm not convinced that you have. But I hope so.

For a certain part of my life, I used to be an atheist. When God came into my life, it was like a peace, and love like I had never known before. My life was forever changed. I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and I believed on his death and resurrection on my behalf and asked for His forgiveness over my previously sinful life. Things that controlled me that were once sinful, I was able to put away (not of my own doing but by the power of the Lord). I was transformed and born again. I felt compelled to tell people about Jesus because I wanted them to have the same love, joy, and peace that I had come to know.

Again, it comes back to 1 John 1:7. You are not explaining it. You keep avoiding in explaining it. If you hold to the view that I have not believed on the Lord in a saving way (Which to me is pretty ridiculous), then by all means, you should have no trouble explaining 1 John 1:7. How does 1 John 1:7 work with your belief? What does walk in the light mean to you? Is walking in the light a work? If it is a work, then why is it tied to Jesus Christ cleansing us of all sin?

 

[LostMarbels]

I ask the question because recently it came to my mind. I've heard a number of times when I ask people the question they will say I need to work on x or y. However, doesn't that line of thinking mean that subconsciously you believe in meriting salvation to an extent? If Jesus came today and you think you won't go to heaven because you're smoker, addicted to inappropriate contentography, have an issue with your temper, etc. If that's the case, I believe that deep down you don't believe in salvation by faith alone (I am not knocking on those who don't affirm that). Just a food for thought what do you think?

PS: I am not talking universalism nor am I saying you can live as you want.

I have come to the point in my walk with Christ that I simply follow him. I confess Jesus is Christ. I believe he is a member of the triune Godhead, and creator of all existence. Literally, I confess Jesus as the word of God in the flesh, and the one and only true God. This realisation of who Jesus is, and how profoundly unworthy I am, has lead me to just accept Christ, pick up my cross, and follow. I complain. I gripe. But he forebears me. I fail, and Christ still forebears me. God's grace is sufficient for my stubbornness and shortcomings. So, I just follow. Just put one foot in front of the other, and follow.

I have thought about hell, quite a bit, and I wondered If God was to dam my soul, is he any less the Christ? Is he no longer my God? Should I no longer follow him if he will not reward my earthly efforts? I came to the conclusion of no. I will follow. I am exactly who God formed me to be in the womb, and I am as was intended at my conception. I have not surprised Christ or acted in any manner he did not know would occur. And he keeps leading. He hasn't turned me away. So I keep following.

God is not ashamed of me. I, am ashamed of me. God is not going to brow beat me or abuse me. It is me who shakes an angry fist at God, and talks all manor of wrongs with the same mouth that just praised him. And usually in error, because of my own worldly lusts of what is fair, and what I should have or do... So, I am the one who is abusive, not God. How many times have I offended this God, that loved me so much he would pay his own price for my sin? No, God is just in all that he does. He would even be just in damming me to hell. God would be right, justly so, to condemn me. It is his love and grace that continues to cover my sin. So I just keep following. God's will be done. Jesus is Christ regardless.

I believe salvation is assured to all who confess Jesus as Christ. But intend to follow him even if he were to throw me in hell. Even if it is his intention to turn me over to be killed, or tortured. God is just in that. So all this worry about being saved and losing salvation realy doesn't matter all that much to me. I confess Jesus Christ as Lord. May God's will be done in that. I choose to still follow regardless of what God's will may, or may not be concerning me. I love him. And however it comes, I will die with my best friend in this life at my side. God's will be done.