Do You Accept Evolution?

[ArcticFox]

A lot of people don't understand what *missing links* or *transitional forms* are.

Say you took a new born child and took a picture of it, and every three years over its whole life you did the same. You'd have bunch of pictures and the child would look quite a bit different in each one, but in each one the child is a fully formed being.

The fossil record is kinda like that, we kind pictures here and there or our past, and the species will nearly always appear to be fully formed species, because the change is so *Slooooooow*. The changes are so slow that things rarely look like a cross between two species but rather a complete species. Although, we have found dinosaurs that appear like half lizard half bird and even fish with small legs, but they don't really look that strange because the process is so slow.

Evolution (God guided, of course) uses the same structures and reshapes them over time, like the hand. Look at the bones in the feet of animals and the bones in our hands. The same concept but with all sorts of variations, which again would not make things look radical in the fossil record.

Also, you know it takes the right conditions for something to fossilize and only a tiny percent of beings do.

And I'd ask you, why do they find feathered dinosaurs, with teeth, low in the earth but *never* a modern species like an eagle that low? It's because they never lived in the same time together. And why do eagles have the exact same feet as these species did, and why do eagles have three fingers under their wings, just like these dinosuars? Science has shown they can just slightly mess with the gene on the scaled legs of birds, causing the scales to become feathers. If you look at the pattern of feathers on birds, you can see they are highly evolved scales.

Next time you get a chance look over the end of the wing on a turkey at Thanksgiving and look over its dinosaur scaled feet. And if God made these modern birds from scratch, then why do they have the gene for making teeth, which sometimes produces teeth in them nowadays? That gene wouldn't be there is God made everything, as we see it today, from scratch.

Yes, Christian Sojourner, believe it or not I know all about it.

This isn't the first time I've discussed the subject.

Also, no offense but your Thanksgiving analogy is ridiculous. You had some good points, but that last paragraph makes your post look like a joke. You shoulda stopped while you were ahead.

 

[gluadys]

The creation narrative is not to be perceived allegorically but as actual history. The word of God must always stand forever above the word of man. (Isaiah 40:8)

Why can't it be both: actual history narrated metaphorically. (Genesis is not really an allegory.)

 

[gluadys]

Incorrect. Macroevolution means crossing taxa. Taxonomic classification includes kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species. Granting that taxonomic classifications are superimposed/manmade, still there is evidence of speciation, but not observed evidence beyond speciation.

Actually, evolution, or more precisely, speciation, is about separating taxa, not about crossing them after they have been separated.

 

[Musa80]

Uggh Well now that the thread is in origins, I suppose it's run it's course. It will now be overrun with pseudo-scientists exclaiming for the umpteenth billion time "But you just don't understand. You'd believe if you only understood. Here let me regale you yet again with junk science"

unsubscribing

 

[Christian Sojourner]

Yes, Christian Sojourner, believe it or not I know all about it.

This isn't the first time I've discussed the subject.

Also, no offense but your Thanksgiving analogy is ridiculous. You had some good points, but that last paragraph makes your post look like a joke. You shoulda stopped while you were ahead.

How was my last paragraph a joke?

Do not turkeys have wishbones, just like feathered dinosaurs (raptors)? Don't they have scaled feet that are nearly the same as those dinosaur feet? Don't they have three fingers in the end of their wings like those dinosaurs? And why don't you EVER find a fossil of a turkey at that level of the earth? Because they never walked the earth together, but those dinosaurs evolved into modern birds.

The evidence is overwhelming, and I've given a lot of evidence, but you've given nothing other than saying my post was a joke.

And again, why are some birds born with teeth if made from scratch? That atavism wouldn't be there if they were made from scratch. So God just puts garbage genes in for no reason?

 

[Assyrian]

Incorrect. Macroevolution means crossing taxa. Taxonomic classification includes kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species. Granting that taxonomic classifications are superimposed/manmade, still there is evidence of speciation, but not observed evidence beyond speciation.

Take humans for example. We never crossed taxa from primate to ape to human. We still are apes, and primates, and mammals.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Take humans for example. We never crossed taxa from primate to ape to human. We still are apes, and primates, and mammals.

Using classification as evidence? Isn't that circular reasoning?

 

[Mallon]

I'm surprised how many people voted "No".

This is mostly an American site...

 

[Mallon]

Using classification as evidence? Isn't that circular reasoning?

No. Assyrian's point is that, because life takes the shape of a nested hierarchy, an organism can never outgrow its ancestry to become something else. That's not circular -- it's a natural consequence of the nested hierarchical pattern. We will always be humans, apes, mammals, vertebrates, bilaterians, metazoans, etc., etc., etc. We can never be something else.

 

[sfs]

Uggh Well now that the thread is in origins, I suppose it's run it's course. It will now be overrun with pseudo-scientists exclaiming for the umpteenth billion time "But you just don't understand. You'd believe if you only understood. Here let me regale you yet again with junk science"

unsubscribing

In my field of genetics, the evidence for common descent is so overwhelming as to make believing anything else an impossibility for me.

(And "pseudo-scientists"? Why the denigration? I had no idea I was a pseudo-scientist. I and my employers are both under the impression that I'm a real science-doing kind of scientist. If I'm not I'm getting paid under false pretenses.)

 

[The Barbarian]

Do not turkeys have wishbones, just like feathered dinosaurs (raptors)? Don't they have scaled feet that are nearly the same as those dinosaur feet?

Not "nearly." Almost exactly. The scales on turkey legs are scutes, which are found only in archosaurs. Birds, dinosaurs, crocodiles, etc.

You're right, he was wrong.

 

[ArcticFox]

Not "nearly." Almost exactly. The scales on turkey legs are scutes, which are found only in archosaurs. Birds, dinosaurs, crocodiles, etc.

You're right, he was wrong.

Wait a minute... I see it now! Since we've classified that as "archosaur," therefore everything that has it is a "dinosaur descendent," and therefore, they are "dinosaur scales."

I love how classifications are used to defend classifications

Circular reasoning FTL.

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[Jpark]

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. (Psalm 33:6)

He fashions their hearts individually. (Psalm 33:15)

I was wondering where this passage was. It comes with study notes concerning evolution.

The heavens (universe) did not evolve, but were created by the word of God.

 

[Assyrian]

Using classification as evidence? Isn't that circular reasoning?

No, archierieus seemed to have a problem with the idea that evolution means crossing taxonomic boundaries, but evolution doesn't say that.

 

[Assyrian]

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. (Psalm 33:6)

He fashions their hearts individually. (Psalm 33:15)

I was wondering where this passage was. It comes with study notes concerning evolution.

The heavens (universe) did not evolve, but were created by the word of God.

And we can throw out what cardiologists tell you about the development of the foetal heart. God fashions them individually. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying God didn't fashion your heart for you, or knit you together in your mother's womb. All science is doing is giving us a glimpse into the wonders of how God created it all.

 

[Jpark]

And we can throw out what cardiologists tell you about the development of the foetal heart. God fashions them individually. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying God didn't fashion your heart for you, or knit you together in your mother's womb. All science is doing is giving us a glimpse into the wonders of how God created it all.

Well, I for one could agree with science. The big bang is presupposed. (the earth was without form, Genesis 1:2) However, the light is the presence of illumination. (Genesis 1:3) God created the luminary bodies on the fourth day. (Genesis 1:14-19) What is certain is that God created the universe with a word, not with a bang.

 

[Mallon]

Wait a minute... I see it now! Since we've classified that as "archosaur," therefore everything that has it is a "dinosaur descendent," and therefore, they are "dinosaur scales."

I love how classifications are used to defend classifications

Circular reasoning FTL.

No. The Barbarian's point is that, because life takes the shape of a nested hierarchy, an organism can never outgrow its ancestry to become something else. That's not circular -- it's a natural consequence of the nested hierarchical pattern. Turkeys will always be birds, dinosaurs, archosaurs, reptiles, vertebrates, bilaterians, metazoans, etc., etc., etc. They can never be something else.

Perhaps you have a better explanation for the morphological and genetic hierarchy into which life is organized?

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Not "nearly." Almost exactly. The scales on turkey legs are scutes, which are found only in archosaurs. Birds, dinosaurs, crocodiles, etc.

You're right, he was wrong.
​

Wait a minute... I see it now! Since we've classified that as "archosaur," therefore everything that has it is a "dinosaur descendent," and therefore, they are "dinosaur scales."

No. What a goofy idea. It turns out that dinosaurs had scutes. And birds have them, as well as crocodilians. But these three groups were grouped on the basis of other evidence, such as anatomy, transitional fossils, and the like. Scutes are just further confirmation of the fact.

One of the more interesting confirmations of this relationship came about when a Tyrannosaurus rex bone was found with a little bit of heme still in it.

When analyzed, it was found to be most like that of birds, a little like mammals, and less like modern reptiles. Precisely what evolutionary theory predicted.

I love how classifications are used to defend classifications

And now you know better. This is a good example of the way ignorance can blindside you in discussions like this.

Circular reasoning FTL.

You probably should know that professional creationists use "circular reasoning" as a mantra whenever they are confronted with evidence they can't explain. So we hear it a lot. It just means "I don't know what to say, and this seems like it would sound profound."

 

[Melethiel]

Well, I for one could agree with science. The big bang is presupposed. (the earth was without form, Genesis 1:2) However, the light is the presence of illumination. (Genesis 1:3) God created the luminary bodies on the fourth day. (Genesis 1:14-19) What is certain is that God created the universe with a word, not with a bang.

How do you know the Word didn't cause a bang?

Cosmology doesn't have anything to do with evolution anyway, nor does accepting evolution mean throwing God out of the picture, no more than modern embryology does. We all believe that God created everything, regardless of how he did it.

 

[Jpark]

How do you know the Word didn't cause a bang?

Cosmology doesn't have anything to do with evolution anyway, nor does accepting evolution mean throwing God out of the picture, no more than modern embryology does. We all believe that God created everything, regardless of how he did it.

Only God knows.

Then why debate evolution? God created the universe.