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Do You Accept Evolution?

Do you accept Evolution (Natural Selection)?

  • Yes

  • No


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JacktheCatholic

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I'm a calvinistic Christian who has recently come to accept evolution. I'm curious how many here accept it or reject it.


Micro... yes

Macro... no

Until there is proof for macro evolution I see no reason to subscribe to it. With the fact that Darwinism and macro evolution are nothing more than theories with no reaal data to prove them as true AND that data exists that lends proof contrary to these theories I will wait before I subscribe to what can be another "world is flat" scientific fact.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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It is my belief that Macro Evolution as it is taught and understood is inconsistent and cannot be reconciled with any proper or semi-proper reading of Genesis 1-3.


Poetry... this is where we should start in regards to Genesis IMHO.


Has anyone

Ever wonder why crocodiles are virtually unchanged since the time of dinosaurs? Ever wonder why there are no "links" to theories of macro evolution or darwinism? Maybe because they do not exist.
 
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Until there is proof for macro evolution I see no reason to subscribe to it.
I just gave a few reasons why I believe it to be true. If you study those points I mentioned, then you may see there is quite a bit of evidence which cannot be argued against with any good argument.
 
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&Abel

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I don't trust modern science all that much...I think theres bias on both sides of the fence

what I find interesting is the loss of genetic information when evolution has been observed

this to me this is symbolic of decay and I'm actually wondering if adaptation is in response to the consequences of sin and despite how it appears species are actually getting weaker
 
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ArcticFox

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I just gave a few reasons why I believe it to be true. If you study those points I mentioned, then you may see there is quite a bit of evidence which cannot be argued against with any good argument.

I think what he is saying is until there is *proof*, not until there are arguments for it.

Macro Evolution loves to present itself as more sure than it is. People are strung along to believe that entire evolutions of species into other species are catalogued and lined-up in museums somewhere.

Such is not the case. There is no one missing link, but a plethora of missing links. Fakes are still regularly referred to despite having been proven as frauds.

I still find the basic premise of Macro Evolution ridiculous, that random genetic mutations would eventually produce ever-more complex living organisms.

In general, such mutations are limited to the individual and are not passed on in the genes, and even those that are, are almost always certainly a harmful trait that damages the creature.
 
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Assyrian

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The language of the subjection in Romans 8 doesn't militate for this subjection being part of the created order. I don't find it reasonable to say something is both in "bondage of corruption" like Romans 8 calls the current order, and "very good," as Genesis calls the created order.
The problem here is you are mixing up the metaphorical use of the word corruption, the idea of 'moral corruption', with its literal meaning, the simple fact of biological decay. There is no moral dimension to meat going off, and in fact the decay of dead animals and plants is an important part of the natural world, God's very good creation.

What strikes me as very odd about this debate is the way Creationists end up denying that God's creation really is very good.

Moreover, Adam's sin caused death to enter "the world," according to Romans 5, not merely humanity. You can argue that "the world" only means humans,
Actually I would argue that the death he is talking about only spread to humans. After all that is what Paul says. Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. I don't see how this death could spread to animals when it spreads to all men because all sinned. Animals don't sin, so the spread of death Paul is talking about simply would not effect them.

but that's a reading you simply wouldn't get unless you were trying to square the Bible with evolution. And that's the heart of the issue. Before evolutionary theory I would never have even concieved of these interpretations. That's not ok if origins are a topic on which God desires us to have a doctrine, if they are a matter of "faith and practice." And in a faith with a redemptive history, they are.
Don't forget this is not the only interpretation we have had to change. No one conceived of any of our modern interpretations of the geocentric passages (Joshua 10:12-14, Psalm 93:1 Eccles 1:5) before Copernicus came along and told us the sun did not go around the earth. If we discover an old interpretation is wrong shouldn't we find a better way to understand it?
 
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Epiphoskei

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Actually I would argue that the death he is talking about only spread to humans. After all that is what Paul says. Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. I don't see how this death could spread to animals when it spreads to all men because all sinned. Animals don't sin, so the spread of death Paul is talking about simply would not effect them.
I reject "Because" as a translation of the Greek eph ho. That interpretation is based largely on Augustine's writings on Romans. Augustine, however, didn't know Greek, and his interpretation is based on the Latin text. The Greek text is better read "upon which," or perhaps more loosely, "therefore." "Death spread to all men, therefore all sin." Death is a consequence of one sin, not each man's sin, and only entered the world after that sin. Given Paul's later reference to the creation being subjected to futility, it stands to reason that "the world" extends beyond only men, encompassing "the creation."

Don't forget this is not the only interpretation we have had to change. No one conceived of any of our modern interpretations of the geocentric passages (Joshua 10:12-14, Psalm 93:1 Eccles 1:5) before Copernicus came along and told us the sun did not go around the earth. If we discover an old interpretation is wrong shouldn't we find a better way to understand it?
This is a tangent, but it's simply not wrong to say the sun moves around the earth, relative to the position of the earth. All motion is relative.

But the real difference is that the point of these passages is not to tell us something about the sun. The point of Genesis, however, is indeed to tell us something about creation. Geocentrism or Heliocentrism are not Christian doctrines, but Creation, Anthropology, and Hamartiology are Christian doctrines. And the fact remains, prior to Darwinism, no one would ever come up with versions of these doctrines which could even accomodate evolutionary theories of biogenesis, either from scripture or from Church traditions.
 
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Assyrian

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I reject "Because" as a translation of the Greek eph ho. That interpretation is based largely on Augustine's writings on Romans. Augustine, however, didn't know Greek, and his interpretation is based on the Latin text. The Greek text is better read "upon which," or perhaps more loosely, "therefore." "Death spread to all men, therefore all sin."
I agree that a lot of the problems we have with this verse date back to Augustine and his Latin text. However what the Latin says is in quo omnes peccaverunt, in whom all sinned. It was where he got the whole idea of Original Sin, death spread to all men because all sinned in Adam. But as you point out, that is not what the Greek says. However we do know what the phrase eph ho means, it was a Greek phrase that means 'for this reason that', or simply, 'because'. That is the way modern translations put it. Death spread to all men because all sinned. Paul says the same thing about himself in Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. Death spread to Paul when Paul sinned.

Death is a consequence of one sin, not each man's sin, and only entered the world after that sin. Given Paul's later reference to the creation being subjected to futility, it stands to reason that "the world" extends beyond only men, encompassing "the creation."
Actually Paul says nothing about the futility creation is subject to being a result of the fall. To get back to the Calvinist approach, Paul simply says it was God's sovereign choice, not that God was punishing the world for man's sin, or that creation fell when man did. God's sovereign choice to subject creation to futility works just as well if God subject creation to futility and the bondage to decay from the the very first life on earth. It was God choice how to create life.

This is a tangent, but it's simply not wrong to say the sun moves around the earth, relative to the position of the earth. All motion is relative.
Acceleration isn't. Which requires more energy, to run around an elephant or to swing an elephant around you?

But the real difference is that the point of these passages is not to tell us something about the sun. The point of Genesis, however, is indeed to tell us something about creation. Geocentrism or Heliocentrism are not Christian doctrines, but Creation, Anthropology, and Hamartiology are Christian doctrines. And the fact remains, prior to Darwinism, no one would ever come up with versions of these doctrines which could even accomodate evolutionary theories of biogenesis, either from scripture or from Church traditions.
Actually, people felt some very serious doctrines were challenged by heliocentrism, the inspiration and trustworthiness of scripture for one, as Cardinal Bellarmine said about Galileo if scripture is wrong about this how can you trust it about the virgin birth? Personally I would rather find out if my interpretation is right or not, rather that build any doctrines on a misinterpretation.

Do not underestimate the challenge heliocentrism presented to the church coming to terms with new science that contradicted an unquestioned and seemingly obvious literal interpetation, or the challenge of searching out new ways to read these passages. They faced the same struggle we do with evolution and the age of the earth. We should learn from them.

But really, I don't know any important doctrines that are effected by either the age of the earth or evolution. I believe God is the Creator who made the heavens and the earth and all that in them. The only question is his timetable he used and the processes involved, but there is no doctrine telling us how God created life, in fact some of the church fathers suggested God endowed earth with the ability to produce life, and as we have seen there were church fathers and scholars through the ages who didn't take the days of Genesis literally.

Adam and Eve are not an issue either, I know plenty of Christians who accept evolution and think A&E were literal historical individuals. I don't, but that is because I don't think the scriptures are meant to be understood literally, not because of evolution. Is it a foundational Christian doctrine that Adam was made of clay? Does it make the slightest difference if this is as metaphorical as when the bible says God made us from clay?

I know Christians who accept evolution and believe in Original Sin, I don't, but it is not because of science or my interpretation of Genesis, it is because I don't think Augustine's doctrine is a good interpretation of Romans 5:12.

 
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Epiphoskei

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However we do know what the phrase eph ho means, it was a Greek phrase that means 'for this reason that', or simply, 'because'. That is the way modern translations put it.
Which I'm contesting. It's a minority position, but not without supporters.

Actually Paul says nothing about the futility creation is subject to being a result of the fall.
Didn't say he did overtly, I said it stands to reason that if death entered the world through sin, the futility of creation is best viewed as another reference to the fall.

Actually, people felt some very serious doctrines were challenged by heliocentrism, the inspiration and trustworthiness of scripture for one, as Cardinal Bellarmine said about Galileo if scripture is wrong about this how can you trust it about the virgin birth? Personally I would rather find out if my interpretation is right or not, rather that build any doctrines on a misinterpretation.

Do not underestimate the challenge heliocentrism presented to the church coming to terms with new science that contradicted an unquestioned and seemingly obvious literal interpetation, or the challenge of searching out new ways to read these passages. They faced the same struggle we do with evolution and the age of the earth. We should learn from them.

But really, I don't know any important doctrines that are effected by either the age of the earth or evolution. I believe God is the Creator who made the heavens and the earth and all that in them. The only question is his timetable he used and the processes involved, but there is no doctrine telling us how God created life, in fact some of the church fathers suggested God endowed earth with the ability to produce life, and as we have seen there were church fathers and scholars through the ages who didn't take the days of Genesis literally.

Adam and Eve are not an issue either, I know plenty of Christians who accept evolution and think A&E were literal historical individuals. I don't, but that is because I don't think the scriptures are meant to be understood literally, not because of evolution. Is it a foundational Christian doctrine that Adam was made of clay? Does it make the slightest difference if this is as metaphorical as when the bible says God made us from clay?

I know Christians who accept evolution and believe in Original Sin, I don't, but it is not because of science or my interpretation of Genesis, it is because I don't think Augustine's doctrine is a good interpretation of Romans 5:12.
What people felt and the actual state of things are different. Theories of Geocentrism and Heliocentrism (which historically had nothing to do with the passages you quoted at all, but were really debates about platonistic cosmology integrated into the theology of the church) aren't valid doctrinal points. Creation is a valid doctrinal point, being a large point of redemptive history. All doctrines must be layed out in their entireity in special revelation. If the natural sciences cause you to change a doctrine, you've erred.
 
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archierieus

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Micro... yes

Macro... no

Ditto for me. As for macroevolution, that is, crossing taxa, that theory, hoary with age, has been punched so full of holes that all but the most die-hard enthusiasts are giving up on it. I have been in quite serious debates with professional scientists on the subject, and am quite familiar with the issues.

Dave
 
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Assyrian

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Which I'm contesting. It's a minority position, but not without supporters.
I do have a problem with an interpretation that seems to start of with an a doctrine and tries to make scripture fit. Original Sin began with Augustine's Latin mistranslation but since then people have been trying to find other ways to get scripture to support it. On the exegetical side I have problems with an interpretation that ignores how a phrase was actually used by people speaking the language back then and tries to read a new meaning into it taking the phrase apart word for word. As you say the position does have some supporters, but I think it is bad hermeneutics. Suffice it to say, the translation supported the vast majority of Greek scholarship doesn't cause any problems with evolution.

Didn't say he did overtly, I said it stands to reason that if death entered the world through sin, the futility of creation is best viewed as another reference to the fall.
Depends on the kind of death he is talking about doesn't it? A death that only spread to people because they sin is not going to effect animals.

What people felt and the actual state of things are different. Theories of Geocentrism and Heliocentrism (which historically had nothing to do with the passages you quoted at all, but were really debates about platonistic cosmology integrated into the theology of the church)
The geocentric interpretation of these passages go right back to the early church fathers, nothing to do with Platonism or Aristotle, it is simply the most natural way to read the verses. What I do not understand is how literalists who insist on the plain meaning of scripture when it comes to Genesis seem completely unable to see how anybody could read these passages and take them as describing a geocentric cosmos. Yet that was the plain and obvious meaning to everyone reading these verse before Copernicus.

aren't valid doctrinal points. Creation is a valid doctrinal point, being a large point of redemptive history. All doctrines must be layed out in their entireity in special revelation. If the natural sciences cause you to change a doctrine, you've erred.
Again there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of creation. God is creator no matter what we learn of how creation happened, the same as no scientific discovery about human reproduction can contradict the fact that God created me and knit me together in my mother's womb.

Even so, if science shows you your interpretation is wrong then you should not have gone a built a doctrine on it. Why would you want to build a doctrine on it? Scripture comes before doctrine, we have to get our interpretation of scripture right before we can build any doctrine on it. Building a doctrine on your interpretation is no guarantee your interpretation is right. Do you believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Catholics built that doctrine on a literal interpretation of Christ's statement 'this is my body'.
 
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Assyrian

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Ditto for me. As for macroevolution, that is, crossing taxa, that theory, hoary with age, has been punched so full of holes that all but the most die-hard enthusiasts are giving up on it. I have been in quite serious debates with professional scientists on the subject, and am quite familiar with the issues.

Dave
Evolution is never about crossing taxa. Unless you mean hybridization?
 
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I think what he is saying is until there is *proof*, not until there are arguments for it.

Macro Evolution loves to present itself as more sure than it is. People are strung along to believe that entire evolutions of species into other species are catalogued and lined-up in museums somewhere.

Such is not the case. There is no one missing link, but a plethora of missing links. Fakes are still regularly referred to despite having been proven as frauds.

I still find the basic premise of Macro Evolution ridiculous, that random genetic mutations would eventually produce ever-more complex living organisms.

In general, such mutations are limited to the individual and are not passed on in the genes, and even those that are, are almost always certainly a harmful trait that damages the creature.
A lot of people don't understand what *missing links* or *transitional forms* are.

Say you took a new born child and took a picture of it, and every three years over its whole life you did the same. You'd have bunch of pictures and the child would look quite a bit different in each one, but in each one the child is a fully formed being.

The fossil record is kinda like that, we kind pictures here and there or our past, and the species will nearly always appear to be fully formed species, because the change is so *Slooooooow*. The changes are so slow that things rarely look like a cross between two species but rather a complete species. Although, we have found dinosaurs that appear like half lizard half bird and even fish with small legs, but they don't really look that strange because the process is so slow.

Evolution (God guided, of course) uses the same structures and reshapes them over time, like the hand. Look at the bones in the feet of animals and the bones in our hands. The same concept but with all sorts of variations, which again would not make things look radical in the fossil record.

Also, you know it takes the right conditions for something to fossilize and only a tiny percent of beings do.

And I'd ask you, why do they find feathered dinosaurs, with teeth, low in the earth but *never* a modern species like an eagle that low? It's because they never lived in the same time together. And why do eagles have the exact same feet as these species did, and why do eagles have three fingers under their wings, just like these dinosuars? Science has shown they can just slightly mess with the gene on the scaled legs of birds, causing the scales to become feathers. If you look at the pattern of feathers on birds, you can see they are highly evolved scales.

Next time you get a chance look over the end of the wing on a turkey at Thanksgiving and look over its dinosaur scaled feet. And if God made these modern birds from scratch, then why do they have the gene for making teeth, which sometimes produces teeth in them nowadays? That gene wouldn't be there is God made everything, as we see it today, from scratch.
 
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archierieus

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Evolution is never about crossing taxa. Unless you mean hybridization?

Incorrect. Macroevolution means crossing taxa. Taxonomic classification includes kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species. Granting that taxonomic classifications are superimposed/manmade, still there is evidence of speciation, but not observed evidence beyond speciation.
 
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Mallon

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Granting that taxonomic classifications are superimposed/manmade, still there is evidence of speciation, but not observed evidence beyond speciation.
... which is precisely what evolution predicts. If, as you admit, any classification above the species level is a man-made construction, then one could never objectively observe the evolution of some new order because the very notion of an "order" is entirely artificial. That evolution produces "hopeful monsters" is a fundamental misunderstanding of the theory.
 
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