Do Christian men fail at masculinity?

[vortigen84]

Was talking to a girl on another forum, she was asking whether it was OK for a Christian to marry a non-Christian. She ended up marrying a non-Christian against my advice and others posting, but she made a point about Christian guys that I thought I'd repost here. What do you think? Fair cop, or unfair accusation?

If you're a girl and you generally agree with the post, what specifically do you think needs to change about Christian men?

I spent my life in church, mission trips, christian housing in college, more mission trips, volunteering with christians, working in christian ministries.

I was looking for someone who would pursue me and was serious about marriage, having a family, getting 'settled' down, plus those things above. Christian boys are wusses, total wimps. I had guys who would talk with me, act like 'just friends', then when I started dating someone, they acted all hurt and jealous, but how was I ever supposed to know they even liked me? They were 'just friends' and acted it. Then the boys I dated. One never smiled, was totally an over-analyzer of himself. Another was a total fake. The third was jealous and got mad at me for even watching people walk by, because some of them were boys. Gah. These were nice, upstanding young men, mind you.

Here is the other thing. Shallowness and stupid theology. You know the kind. "I FEEL this, clearly my feelings are the leading of the Holy Spirit!" Taking verses out of context. Emphasis on youth-leader like charismatic personality instead of character. I DESPISE the typical youth-leader personality... you know, the stereotype that so many American Christian boys try to emulate.

I had a lot of fun with Christian boys. Hiking.... well, there was that group that told me I had a problem with being a woman because I wanted to go hiking. THAT was something else. But others, I had fun with them. But they weren't looking for wives. They wanted a girlfriend.

That's the other thing I get sick of. Being a 'girlfriend' before the boy even knows if he really likes me. You know the boy I have now, he pursued me even though he knew another boy liked me (who I did not like, but anyway), and he knew beforehand that he wanted to marry me. He knew before I even realized he liked me. He told me in the beginning, "I don't want to hurt you," and held to it. I've always known he meant "this isn't where I date you and break up with you. You can decide to say no to me, but I'm not playing with you." It was just... honorable and strong. And yes, I liked the gutsiness of pursuing me even though there was competition. Some girls don't like that, it makes them feel like a prize. But I like that, it makes me feel like the boys are saying, "I really think I'll be best for you, I'd like to give you the honor of deciding for yourself." But it takes guts.

Here is the thing. There is this debate; nice guy or bad boy. Bad boy wins, nice guy finishes last, but christian girls are supposed to want the nice guy, blah blah blah. But the problem is no girl wants either. We want a dangerous and good boy. You know in Lord of the Rings, Gandalf talks about how he is dangerous, but he is good? It's in the second book, anyway, if you didn't. Or Chronicles of Narnia. There is a scene where they talk about Aslan. He is NOT a tame lion, he is scary, but good. The Inklings (Tolkien, Lewis, and the other two in their writing group) really had a strong grasp on the concept of good things can still be deadly and dangerous. I suppose they have to be, to be stronger than evil. God is light, and the strongest light, a laser, think what it does. It'll vaporize you. I suspect pure goodness is the most deadly and dangerous thing of all. And a good fear of that (called respect) is also a good thing. I want a boy like that. Good and dangerous. Not a nice boy with no guts or strength, just always nice and making people happy. And I definitely don't want a seducing bad boy who sees women as sex toys. I want a good boy who's goodness is strong enough to be dangerous to those who would hurt others. That's what I was looking for, and I'm sorry, but it's just not common in the somewhat feelingized, overly-feminine, 'let's consider God our lover' (poor guys.... homosexual deity relationship concept??) American church. It's. Just. Not. There.

I found a boy with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness (dang, that's a hot trait), and self-control. He is kind, and sometimes, he scares me. No, not fear. Respect. Like when I gossip about other people and he calls me out on it, tells me he doesn't want to hear it. I feel pretty stupid then, and it wasn't 'nice' of him. But wow, did I love it and respect it.

And... boys are too feminist. Buying into this crap idea that children are burdens. To my boy, marriage is normal and expected, kind of blah in that respect. It's just what happens, not really any question about it. And children, that's the point. And a good joyous point too. Boys just aren't like that these days.

I was on eharmony for a while (and got paired with some boy who took me to his apartment and tried to kiss me on the first date.... that was the end of my eharmony days, as clearly it didn't know how to match me with people. I was NOT the go back and sleep together first date type), and someone told me "You don't realize this cuz you don't see other girls' profiles, but you are a lot less shallow than most of them". So I'm pretty sure I'm not shallow, nor hypocritically religious. And boring? Well, to some I am (and they are to me), and to others we just laugh and laugh and laugh. And boring is about personality, not character. I love that my boy prefers good character of people over exciting personality. I learned that from him.

Also, I got sick of the Christian boys being so focused on their church bands and church youth groups (yay, let's isolate youngin's from wise adults. Good one! That's a stupid thing the church is doing, btw) and church mission trips and church baking and .... gah. Get out into the real world, people, where there are real things to spend time on, where people live in small apartments with out toys and food and furniture, no access to health care (don't worry, obamacare is a bad idea, I know!) and bad schools. Seriously. You know, in your own country, in your own city. Don't think you have to go overseas for a fun little vacation to get that. I've worked in social work where the board of directors was Christian, and not a single employee was. Because those boys have their band ministry. With the cheesy little skits for Sunday's sermon. Wow, that's important stuff there.

Seriously, that stuff makes my head pop.

 

[cyhertzler]

I like her. She calls it as real as it can get, in some circles (last paragraph & last sentence).

I doubt she's being "unfair" in her accusations. She writes like someone who knows what she is writing about (by experience). I wouldn't put her in a box & label it.
Probably too many "boys" are acting out roles that have been placed before them....modeling what they've seen modeled to them, without really thinking about it & understanding what they're doing. Lots of people do that before they truly discover who God made them to be. Seems like some churches want to meet the world's "tolerance" "human relations" standards more than they want to bring up boys to really know the Holy Spirit's leading in their hearts & lives. Maybe churches ought to get back to mentoring boys [by way of the Holy Spirit's leading].
King David is a great example of a boy/man who had a soft heart & a dangerous lifestyle. He doesn't fit the "feminist, wussie, wimp" description.

Like I said, she seems to know what she's talking about.

Pray that her husband comes to know the gift of Grace that God offers through Jesus Christ. The one thing she just might struggle with is not having the Holy Spiritual connection with her husband.
My husband wasn't saved when we were married; he was a good guy, but not saved. He is saved now; however, in our beginning we didn't have that Holy Spirit connection towards each other....and there were times where the understanding between us felt like worlds apart....and it was lonely for the both of us.

I believe her husband will become saved by Jesus. I'll pray for them too.

 

[AmbryRye]

Was talking to a girl on another forum, she was asking whether it was OK for a Christian to marry a non-Christian. She ended up marrying a non-Christian against my advice and others posting, but she made a point about Christian guys that I thought I'd repost here. What do you think? Fair cop, or unfair accusation?

If you're a girl and you generally agree with the post, what specifically do you think needs to change about Christian men?

I think she needs some spiritual depth. At the time she wrote that rant, she had no business marrying, Christian man or not. She is fostering a great deal of anger and bitterness which is apparent in the words and tone of her writing.

It is obvious that she does not understand certain aspects of ministry and of our roles in the church, in ministry and relationships and marriage.

It sounds as if she wants to come before everything, yet the order, according to God, is 1) God, 2) Spouse, 3) everyone and everything else - prioritized as appropriate.

My husband is a very Godly, wonderful Christian man and he is very masculine. But he is also an adult. From what this girl described, she is very young and is dealing with very young men/boys.

She needs some maturity and needs to get some spiritual depth. She should be focusing on her walk with God and getting to know Him so that she can know what kind of wife He wants her to be - and find the husband that He has picked out for her.

You said she married someone? That is unfortunate. It is unwise to rush ahead when you think God isn't moving fast enough. Look at the trouble Sarah got into because of that very thing.

 

[gideon123]

"Do Christian men fail at masculinity?"

Probably not as much as masculine men fail at Christianity.
Hahahaha!
But i think you get my point.

To be honest, I'm not sure what's going on with men and boys in church. There's a lot of whimpy behavior that's encouraged. I notice it even with the very small kids in the baby room. My wife minds small kids and babies, and many of the little boys are just cry babies and whine buckets. Hahahaha! I mean seriously. Is it something in the way that these kids are being raised by their Moms? Is is something in the water? What??

Anyway, the church has had problems with the "male image" for a long time. C'mon. There's a reason why tons of guys never show up there. I don't know if there's an easy fix, though.

So in a lot of respects ... I can actually understand what your friend told you.

gideon123

 

[seeingeyes]

If you're a girl and you generally agree with the post, what specifically do you think needs to change about Christian men?

---

Here is the thing. There is this debate; nice guy or bad boy. Bad boy wins, nice guy finishes last, but christian girls are supposed to want the nice guy, blah blah blah. But the problem is no girl wants either. We want a dangerous and good boy.

This right here. Jesus was not afraid of anything. Nothin'. He was the picture of "love is as strong as death". He did not care if he got caught hanging out with useless little kids. He was not bothered about what the temple leaders would have thought of him while he was teaching mere women. He never did what he was "supposed" to do. He was totally free in love. He was powerful and unhampered and shocking...even shocking in his humility.

The church today most definitely does not encourage fearlessness. Now, I know we are told to be "fearless" while evangelizing, but in every other circumstance we are supposed to be on our faces, cowering before God's will.

Maybe I am overstating this a bit...but really I don't think I am. Anxiety is epidemic in our churches. We are 'sinners in the hands of an angry God' instead of 'sons of the Most High'. And guess which phrase is from the Good Book.

Now, this is the case for both women and men, but since whimpering submission is already considered a desirable female trait (I can't wait to ask Deborah what she thinks of that!) it doesn't stand out as strongly in women.

I hope that I haven't offended anyone with this analysis, I was just trying to honor an honest question with an honest answer. My fervent prayer is that all my brothers and sisters will quit living in fear and stand up in God's grace. Dad wouldn't offer anything less to His own kids.

God bless

 

[AmbryRye]

If you're a girl and you generally agree with the post, what specifically do you think needs to change about Christian men?

I think that many Christian men need to get more Biblical. God appointed the husband the head of the family, the spiritual authority for his wife and children.

It seems that many "Christian" men don't want the responsibility. They are content to allow their wives run the household, let their wives call all the shots.

God did not intend marriage to be that way.

They need to get into the Word and find out what God says they are supposed to be doing as Godly husbands.

I am very blessed to have a strong, Godly Christian husband. He takes his role seriously and accepts the responsibility. We have a strong, beautiful marriage.

 

[seeingeyes]

You said she married someone? That is unfortunate. It is unwise to rush ahead when you think God isn't moving fast enough. Look at the trouble Sarah got into because of that very thing.

What trouble did Sarah get into?

 

[Strider1002]

There are Christian "nice guys" and non-Christian "nice guys." There's a good book on the subject called "No More Christian Nice Guy," by Paul Coughlin. There's also a secular version, which I don't recommend because it kind of blames religion for some of the problems. But Christian men need not be like the guys she describes.

 

[Ark100]

I don't agree with her post but she has a right to her own opinion, whether right or wrong.
Her opinion does not define all Christian men, and I personally think she might have been on the wrong receiving ends of some men is why she felt so passionate about laying aside any interest in Christian men. I know a few christian men who say similar things about christian women.

The problem is if she ends up marrying a non-christian and finds it hard to convert him, then she would be in a lot of trouble that only she will have to go through alone. Being a christian and marrying a non-christian (who is not interested in converting) is dangerous grounds to tread on, and may affect her relationship with Christ.

Before I got saved I have kind of looked at genuine Christian men as something similar to what she described above. Even though I was always a christian, I was always determined not to marry a religious/staunch christian or pastor because I thought life would be boring with them.
Now I know better. Christian men are not wussies or wimps. There are in fact many strong, masculine, Fun and very handsome Christian men. She might have had experience with the ones she mentioned, does not make all the others the same.

In summary, its just her opinion, and some people get so passionate about what they have been through that they let it affect rational judgement.
Im a female as well, and I oppose her. She has a right to her opinion, and if its a non christian man that suits her, then good-luck to her.

Fair cop on her side due to her experience, unfair accusation to all the other strong Christian men.

 

[BFine]

No, mature Christian men don't fail at masculinity;
when you are looking for someone who is ready to settle down then
look for mature Christian man who ais presenting the qualities of
a man who is firm in his faith walk, emotionally stable,
he has a good reputation/ good character, exhibiting fruits of the spirit etc.

 

[CircuitousPath]

I'm impressed by the depth of her introspection. Most of us have no clue what really attracts us to a potential mate or spouse. More often than not, we have a list of wants and preferences that we intellectually subscribe to while the inner machinery is busy chugging away and making decisions of attraction below our awareness. Then, that attraction finally reveals itself as "chemistry" or the "gut feeling" or what have you.

My dating experiences corroborate what the woman in the OP stated. Women want an ideal combination of the good guy and the bad boy, a man in whom assertive strength and confidence is somewhat tempered by emotional availability and intimacy. Extremes are not fulfilling.

 

[vortigen84]

I hope that I haven't offended anyone with this analysis,

I hope you have because we need it. We need to have our faces rubbed in our incompetence until we feel shame and repent. God does that with his people in the Old Testament, so it's Biblical.

I find it interesting that cowards head up the list of those who God throws in the lake of fire on judgement day:

Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.​

If the church is full of cowardly men, and given what God apparently thinks about cowardice from the above verse, well I think harsh rebukes are entirely warranted.

 

[Felipe Barbosa]

I'm one of those nice guys and I don't know how to change/fix this, I've always been shy and introverted since I was a child.

My father is a good man, but a bad example in the sense of masculinity, I do not blame him nowadays, his father abandoned my pregnant grandmother with five children, he grew up without a male example. The point is, the world gives me a solution to this, being the bad guy. But I do not feel any support in the church about this, when I tried to seek help, people only give answers, as you see in the word, but I really can not understand the question of being dangerous. This brings me a lot of anguish and I think a lot of guys feel that way too.

In fact, I do not know what this phrase means. "I want a good boy who's good enough to be dangerous to those who would hurt others." The first thing that comes to mind is, should I join the army? Or being a cop? Because this has nothing to do with me.

I feel very bad about it and I see no way out, I see people talking about roles and responsibilities, but the truth is that I've always been a social disaster, I like some masculine things, but others are not so masculine like that. Yes, I have depression and social phobia, but I read stories of married men who have depression and they did not look less masculine because of it.

Even if one day I can get rid of depression sometimes I think I should be single for life.

Closer people try to be optimistic, but they do not understand, they do not feel what I feel.

I have prayed many times for God to take from me the desire for the opposite sex, both physical and emotional, but it did not work.

I'm currently in a relationship with a girl (a long story), she really likes me, but I think it will be a mistake if we get married.

I think that many Christian men need to get more Biblical. God appointed the husband the head of the family, the spiritual authority for his wife and children.

It seems that many "Christian" men don't want the responsibility. They are content to allow their wives run the household, let their wives call all the shots.

God did not intend marriage to be that way.

They need to get into the Word and find out what God says they are supposed to be doing as Godly husbands.

I am very blessed to have a strong, Godly Christian husband. He takes his role seriously and accepts the responsibility. We have a strong, beautiful marriage.

 

[Felipe Barbosa]

They are babies, they should not cry?

I suffered bullying at school when I was small, I felt bad for not knowing how to fight back, at the time I did not want to cause problems for my parents. Today I am 25 years old and I still do not know what it is to be a man in the sense of fighting and being brave. I live in a violent country where the thugs are armed and even the police are afraid. Sometimes I think, what should I do to be a man, get into a fight, resist a robbery even with a gun aimed at me?

"Do Christian men fail at masculinity?"

Probably not as much as masculine men fail at Christianity.
Hahahaha!
But i think you get my point.

To be honest, I'm not sure what's going on with men and boys in church. There's a lot of whimpy behavior that's encouraged. I notice it even with the very small kids in the baby room. My wife minds small kids and babies, and many of the little boys are just cry babies and whine buckets. Hahahaha! I mean seriously. Is it something in the way that these kids are being raised by their Moms? Is is something in the water? What??

Anyway, the church has had problems with the "male image" for a long time. C'mon. There's a reason why tons of guys never show up there. I don't know if there's an easy fix, though.

So in a lot of respects ... I can actually understand what your friend told you.

gideon123

 

[Felipe Barbosa]

The question is not how we repent, but how we can do it.

For the world I am an idiot, this is more evident with the culture of my country, I live in Brazil, carnival land, I am a Christian, I do not drink, I am 25 years old and I am a virgin, to the world this is a gigantic shame.

I feel anger, hate, because there are many men who are based on power and are applauded, no one doubts their masculinity, yes, they are on the other extreme, but lately I have found the bad guys much better way.

I hope you have because we need it. We need to have our faces rubbed in our incompetence until we feel shame and repent. God does that with his people in the Old Testament, so it's Biblical.

I find it interesting that cowards head up the list of those who God throws in the lake of fire on judgement day:

Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.​

If the church is full of cowardly men, and given what God apparently thinks about cowardice from the above verse, well I think harsh rebukes are entirely warranted.

 

[Albion]

I probably shouldn't jump into the discussion at this stage, but it sounds to me that your main problem is doubting yourself and your masculinity--not that you are lacking in it. Incidentally, while I believe what you wrote about Brazil, I think it's about the same most of the world over. The circumstances might be a little different from one country to another, but basically it's the same.

 

[Felipe Barbosa]

At least from outside I have the impression that in Asian countries certain behaviors are accepted. Being introverted seems to be common in Japan, here is almost a crime, people here are very strange who is very quiet, if you are man is worse yet, because most people here are very outgoing.

I probably shouldn't jump into the discussion at this stage, but it sounds to me that your main problem is doubting yourself and your masculinity--not that you are lacking in it. Incidentally, while I believe what you wrote about Brazil, I think it's about the same most of the world over. The circumstances might be a little different from one country to another, but basically it's the same.

 

[Albion]

I agree with some of that, but I still feel that it's a matter of degree. In Japan, for example, the national culture is to be deferential and formally polite to a degree that the rest of us cannot quite understand. BUT I think that if you look closer or speak with someone who's close to the Japanese culture, you'll learn that what's masculine there is actually much more aggressive behind the external show than Westerners realize.

I didn't want to suggest counseling or anything like that, but it may really come down to your self-image. For example, you may not be a braggart or the "life of the party," but plenty of quiet people are thought of as intellectuals and self-assured for that reason rather than as wallflowers. You can be yourself and still be seen as masculine, I believe. But again, I don't know enough about you to do much more than plant the idea.

 

[Jonathan Leo]

Was talking to a girl on another forum, she was asking whether it was OK for a Christian to marry a non-Christian. She ended up marrying a non-Christian against my advice and others posting, but she made a point about Christian guys that I thought I'd repost here. What do you think? Fair cop, or unfair accusation?

If you're a girl and you generally agree with the post, what specifically do you think needs to change about Christian men?

I’m sick of Christians saying we shouldn’t marry non Christians.
Just because it’s a Christian - Christian marriage doesn’t mean it’s going to last. I’ve seen 2 divorces in my church, both Christian at the time.
Equally a Christian- non Christian marriage could stand the test of time. I’ve seen these also.
Just because someone wears a Christian tag doesn’t mean they will be nice. I’ve seen all sorts in church.
Some Christians I know are stuck up, arrogant people I’ve met.
Equally some non believers I know are the most genuine people I’ve met.

What if that Christian girl and non Christian guy turn out to have one of the best marriages ever, producing love, joy peace, patience, knindness, goodness, faithfulness, and gentleness? Fruit of the spirit I know
But do you think she would regret not taking your advise then??

The answer to your question though is a lot of things.
Christian guys can become more fun and stop taking life too serious. We are saved, not doomed, but most carry their burdens around.

 

[Radagast]

I’m sick of Christians saying we shouldn’t marry non Christians.

God says we shouldn't.