DO CHILDREN GO TO HEAVEN ?

[throughfiierytrial]

I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree on the matter.

I would like to point out, however, that nowhere in the Bible does Baptism precede belief.

God bless you.

We do not to my knowledge see it recorded that Baptism must precede belief/faith. However, we see in the Psalm 22:9-10 passages that faith exists in the womb to those who are elect. We see conversely that some who demonstrated faith and had only the baptism of John were to be re-baptized with the baptism of Christ (that of the Holy Spirit). We are to be baptized Peter stated to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So what is needed is faith...which may be from the womb...and then baptism. I Corinthians 7 lets us know that the children at least one parent being a believer are to be considered holy. So I guess I concur and am here only putting together a few supporting passages.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

We should trust Christ instead of our own reasoning, of course, right. What did He say about little children?

"But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." (Luke ch 18, Matthew ch 19, Mark ch 10)

Since the Kingdom of God, Heaven (Matthew 19:14), belongs to such as little children already, the question is how you and me can change and become more like them.

And we know we must in fact --

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."


From these, we can surmise that just as others have written in this thread, God will show mercy to little children that die without having heard of Christ.

Consider what Paul wrote in Romans about those without knowledge of the gospel:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”a 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

A fair and exacting standard that few adults could do well on their own....

So....What about little children then in light of this?

--> "... And where there is no law there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15)

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. (Romans 5:13)

Yes, but remember there is an election of God, a calling, a predestination. See the Romans 9:10-18 account/explanation of Jacob and Esau as well as Pharroh. God will Judge the world and do so in all righteousness. Meanwhile, we are somewhat trapped in our sinful nature and look at this and say not fair.
A reminder...
Isaiah 55:8-9:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[RaymondG]

Very good questions : do you have any scriptures that may shed light on this topic : would be very interested

Dont really like to throw verses, as the spiritual truth of a verse can sound like it is in direct opposition to the many literal interpretations of the same verse.

But lets loot at some possibilities. There are verses that seem to state that John the Baptist was Elias who lived long ago. This could given one reason to believe that the spirit that left one body can go and live again in a new one. If this is possible....it would also be possible for the spirit of the children to have another chance to live a life of temptation....the same as us all. Therefore having equal opportunity to be saved or damned. e.g. no free rides for anyone and no good justification for or bright sides associated with murdering children. This being said....there are very good arguments against this idea, from those opposed to the dreaded word :"reincarnation"

There also are verses that seem to apply that God knew us, or at least one person, before we are/ they were formed in the womb. This would mean that I was ME, before my parents either thought of getting busy. And I would most likely be the same ME after the body dies.... It seems that I have forgotten the ME I AM/Was and became the culminations of thoughts beliefs, education and experiences of the Body. Now I have to completely deny this new self, pick up my cross and follow Him.. I must come to my senses, go back to my Father and become again who i always was. ....Now back to the subject.... Since i exist before and after a body....there may not be any restriction on how many times I can have a body....since the body is just a culmination of experiences and thoughts etc.. that will pass away...... The prodigal son asked to go on his own once to waste his inheritance..... but whose to say he wouldnt have been allows to do it multiple times.....even if it was because his life was cut short before having a chance to waste everything and come to his senses?

 

[Halbhh]

Yes, but remember there is an election of God, a calling, a predestination. See the Romans 9:10-18 account/explanation of Jacob and Esau as well as Pharroh. God will Judge the world and do so in all righteousness. Meanwhile, we are somewhat trapped in our sinful nature and look at this and say not fair.
A reminder...
Isaiah 55:8-9:
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Of course, it's all of the above (though it's a separate and deep topic to discuss what is predestined, whether the predestined plan is that salvation is made available for all mankind == "Whosoever" == or instead individually in a "double predestination" for instance, which most think wrong).

So, since we know we must reconcile *all* passages (not only some), then it's more complete to include and rely on the above passages from Christ in the gospels and that from Paul in Romans which speak directly to this this question.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Dont really like to throw verses, as the spiritual truth of a verse can sound like it is in direct opposition to the many literal interpretations of the same verse.

But lets loot at some possibilities. There are verses that seem to state that John the Baptist was Elias who lived long ago. This could given one reason to believe that the spirit that left one body can go and live again in a new one. If this is possible....it would also be possible for the spirit of the children to have another chance to live a life of temptation....the same as us all. Therefore having equal opportunity to be saved or damned. e.g. no free rides for anyone and no good justification for or bright sides associated with murdering children. This being said....there are very good arguments against this idea, from those opposed to the dreaded word :"reincarnation"

There also are verses that seem to apply that God knew us, or at least one person, before we are/ they were formed in the womb. This would mean that I was ME, before my parents either thought of getting busy. And I would most likely be the same ME after the body dies.... It seems that I have forgotten the ME I AM/Was and became the culminations of thoughts beliefs, education and experiences of the Body. Now I have to completely deny this new self, pick up my cross and follow Him.. I must come to my senses, go back to my Father and become again who i always was. ....Now back to the subject.... Since i exist before and after a body....there may not be any restriction on how many times I can have a body....since the body is just a culmination of experiences and thoughts etc.. that will pass away...... The prodigal son asked to go on his own once to waste his inheritance..... but whose to say he wouldnt have been allows to do it multiple times.....even if it was because his life was cut short before having a chance to waste everything and come to his senses?

Just a heads up.. it was Elijah who it is believed was also John the Baptist..

The problem with this being an instance of reincarnation is that Elijah never died. As stated in Hebrews 9:27 "and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Elijah is a special case and a special instance for God's purpose, not a normal occurrence to which we would infer anything else other than it was appointed for him to die once as well.

 

[RaymondG]

Just a heads up.. it was Elijah who it is believed was also John the Baptist..

Just a heads up......you dont have to correct every little mistake you think you see. you can let some things slide. Most people believe I was and the bible is talking about Elijah already. I just chose to quote the bible(KJV) as is, instead of changing it. (unless you are saying Im in error for using the KJV)

Matthew 11:14 "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

The problem with this being an instance of reincarnation is that Elijah never died. As stated in Hebrews 9:27 "and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Elijah is a special case and a special instance for God's purpose, not a normal occurrence to which we would infer anything else other than it was appointed for him to die once as well.

No one who is born from above dies afterward.....So this is quite normal and to be expected....although few seek and find it.

John 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

 

[Hazelelponi]

Just a heads up......you dont have to correct every little mistake you think you see. you can let some things slide. Most people believe I was and the bible is talking about Elijah already. I just chose to quote the bible(KJV) as is, instead of changing it. (unless you are saying Im in error for using the KJV)

Matthew 11:14 "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."



No one who is born from above dies afterward.....So this is quite normal and to be expected....although few seek and find it.

John 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I dont speak Elizabethan English so the King James translation isn't the translation of the Bible I read therefore I'm unfamiliar with Elizabethan spelling styles.

My point however, is that you cannot infer reincarnation - nor teach reincarnation - based on Elijah because he never had a part of the first death - which is appointed to all men.

I was saying nothing about the second death.

 

[RaymondG]

I dont speak Elizabethan English so the King James translation isn't the translation of the Bible I read therefore I'm unfamiliar with Elizabethan spelling styles.

This is fine, however you cannot say that others are in error because they choose to read the KJV. So, in the future, note that one could be quoting from the KJV before you try and correct them.

My point however, is that you cannot infer reincarnation - nor teach reincarnation - based on Elijah because he never had a part of the first death - which is appointed to all men.

I was saying nothing about the second death.

You say that Elijah never had a part in the first death....then say that the first death is appointed to all men. Are you saying Elijah was not a man, or are you making exceptions for rules written in the bible?

And note that I say nothing about the second death as well.

 

[FatalHeart]

On the Elijah thing: "Was no more because God took him" - of Enoch; sounds like death to me.

About children: "I will go to him, but he will not come to me." So David had a belief that he would see his son again. Could this happen if they were destined for two separate camps? Something to think about. Something also to think about is that Jesus went back and preached to the souls in captivity. He is both the Lord of the living and the dead, so, there is evidence seeing as God shows no favoritism that they get a chance to choose just like the other dead did. But the important thing here is that it is unknown and so must be treated very strongly with the idea that dead kids might be going to hell. The reason for this is because we do not want to unbiblically give passes to anything other than faith in Jesus, as to do so and be incorrect is to doom them when there is opportunity to save their souls. It is more important to treat abortions and the like like extremely tragic examples rather than the behavior of "anything goes, let God sort it out." Better to be safe than sorry, in other words, but it should also be done so without losing the Biblical hope for a child because of its unclarity. So, a balance seems necessary. Solomon says that it is better to be a stillborn than someone who has a certain level of a bad life. That really couldn't be said if there was no hope for life after death for them, not after he also says, "A live dog is better off than a dead lion." It would make that verse contradictory because in one instance life is still full of hope for those who have not lived a good one, and on the other, those that have reached a certain level of sorrow are worse off than if they had never been born. So take it all with a grain of salt and remember that God is justified. It's not your unborn child you are living for. It's not your kid that is the most important thing in your life. It's not about you and it's not about them. It's about God and He alone is worthy of your life and worship. All these things are good things that God has created, but none of them, no matter how close to you are good when they become your God. Any child, when lifted above God, becomes and evil thing.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This is fine, however you cannot say that others are in error because they choose to read the KJV. So, in the future, note that one could be quoting from the KJV before you try and correct them.



You say that Elijah never had a part in the first death....then say that the first death is appointed to all men. Are you saying Elijah was not a man, or are you making exceptions for rules written in the bible?

And note that I say nothing about the second death as well.

Well your making not one bit of sense....

From what I read of your initial post was your trying to teach reincarnation for babies and children...

Was I correct in believing that is what your were saying? Or was I incorrectly understanding you?

Second, from what I was reading it seemed you were trying to say that reincarnation is biblical based on the fact Elijah was believed to be John the Baptist...

Was I correct in believing this is what your teaching? Or am I incorrectly understanding you?

If the two above assertions are being correctly understood, then I stand by my initial response to your post..

 

[RaymondG]

Well your making not one bit of sense....

From what I read of your initial post was your trying to teach reincarnation for babies and children...

Was I correct in believing that is what your were saying? Or was I incorrectly understanding you?

Second, from what I was reading it seemed you were trying to say that reincarnation is biblical based on the fact Elijah was believed to be John the Baptist...

Was I correct in believing this is what your teaching? Or am I incorrectly understanding you?

If the two above assertions are being correctly understood, then I stand by my initial response to your post..

My words are for those with an ear to hear. Not all will understand, if you are one of those, please ignore and dont waste one bit of thought on my posts.

I was not teaching anything, nor did I state my on personal beliefs or revelations. I was having a conversation with another poster.

So all your assumptions are false. yet I find no fault in you standing by your beliefs.

 

[Strong in Him]

I do not wish to offend you or anyone on this forum, but we are called to "tell it like it is" which to some is offensive...not meaning that anyone person is always in the right but rather that their right is almost always wrong to someone.
I only have so much time to devote to these forums and this thread. I am not handy with the line-by-line response. I depend on others reading my posts to other individuals as well so as to understand my position...usually, unless its easy to go back and forth with someone.
I will summarize my position here b/c you sound so offended and it is a response to some of your position....

I'm not offended.
I don't agree with you, and I don't like the picture that I think you're painting of God, though I may be wrong about that. But your relationship with God, and the way you see him, is your business.

God is a Righteous Judge (sometimes His ways or His thoughts are not our ways or our thoughts, but we have faith and take heart that He will deal rightly and judge rightly.)

Agreed.

We see some hints of God's justice in this matter in certain passages like Psalm 22:9-10, I Corinthians 7:14 and Acts 2:39.

That's what I'm saying! God created, loves knows about and cares for children.
So we can trust him to do what is right - and as he is a God of love, I believe that what he does is takes them to heaven to be with him; the One who made them.

Some people seem to be saying that children are born in sin, so if they die early, they are sinners who were not able to repent and will be judged accordingly. If you are not saying that and I have my wires crossed; I apologise.
My position is that I do not believe newborns/toddlers to be sinners. Even if they were, I do not believe God would condemn them for not having known him and repented of their sin when they died too early to be able to do so. God is love, full of mercy, grace and compassion. I do not believe he creates anyone just to send them to hell.

 

[Draw For God]

I didn't go through all the responses in this thread but it was enough to make me register to join in on the conversation.

As soon as I read the title, I thought of: Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." - Matthew 19:14

I know that Jesus calls for our faith to be as innocent as children, but I think this covers children as well. I cannot imagine our loving God not allowing an innocent child come to Him. I believe that this also applies to the mentally disabled. When someone reaches the age of accountability, thats when they should publicly give the good confession and get baptized.

 

[RaymondG]

I didn't go through all the responses in this thread but it was enough to make me register to join in on the conversation.

As soon as I read the title, I thought of: Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." - Matthew 19:14

I know that Jesus calls for our faith to be as innocent as children, but I think this covers children as well. I cannot imagine our loving God not allowing an innocent child come to Him. I believe that this also applies to the mentally disabled. When someone reaches the age of accountability, thats when they should publicly give the good confession and get baptized.

So is it, then, a blessing to die before this age of accountability? Since you are assured a ticket to heaven. When, some believe, 99% of people after the age of accountability wont make it to heaven....on the narrow way that few find?

 

[twin.spin]

Taking a verse from Galatians to support sacramentalism is a sad irony, when Paul is so clear that no work saves us, the whole point of Galatians, reversed by one misunderstood verse... [snip]

Not only is infant baptism works salvation, it's the works of a parent saving a child! Faith always is the key to salvation, not any work we or some other mere person does.

Truth check:
Baptism washes away sin: Acts 22:16
Baptism connects us to Christ's death: Romans 6:3
Baptism connects us to Christ's burial Romans 6:4
Baptism clothes ourselves with Christ: Galatians 3:27
Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21
Baptism is what Jesus did to make "a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless" Ephesians 5:25-27
Baptism is what Jesus mentions first in making disciples of all nations Matthew 28:19-20
Baptism is "for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39

Declaring that what Jesus installed and commanded to do, what God the Holy Spirit does through baptism for infants, how baptism connects us to Jesus' life\death\resurrection as "works salvation" a "work we or some other mere person does" is borderline contemptuous of God and his Word.

 

[Strong in Him]

So is it, then, a blessing to die before this age of accountability? Since you are assured a ticket to heaven. When, some believe, 99% of people after the age of accountability wont make it to heaven....on the narrow way that few find?

From our point of view, it might be.
But many people would dispute that they can't have a good life without being saved, and many more may believe that it is their good deeds that will get them to heaven. They're wrong; but I know some church goers who believe that, and nothing you say will convince them otherwise.

That said, I don't feel particularly happy or blessed that my little brother died before his 2nd birthday.
I believe that I will see him in heaven, but I, and my family, would rather have had him with us on earth for a few more years. I think if anyone had said to my parents at the time, "don't worry, you'll see him in heaven", they would have become ex friends jolly quickly. (Though I'm not saying that you're saying that.)

 

[Strong in Him]

Truth check:
Baptism washes away sin: Acts 22:16

The blood of Jesus washes away sin, Ephesians 1:7; 1 John 1:9

Baptism connects us to Christ's death: Romans 6:3

The Lord's supper connects us to Christ's death, as, obviously, does the cross.

Baptism clothes ourselves with Christ: Galatians 3:27

Paul tells us to clothe ourselves with Christ, Romans 13:14, and constantly teaches that we should be in Christ. Jesus tells us we should be united to, and remain in, the True Vine, John 15.
We can't be baptised every day; yet we can be in Christ every day.

Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

Baptism doesn't save; the atoning death of Jesus, who said "it is finished" on the cross, saves.
Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except through me", John 14:6. Not, "you can come some of the way to the Father through me, but you must complete your salvation by being baptised".

Baptism is what Jesus did to make "a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless" Ephesians 5:25-27

That was his death.
If Jesus had not died and reconciled us to God, there would be NO church; we would be nowhere.

Baptism is what Jesus mentions first in making disciples of all nations Matthew 28:19-20

Yes; that doesn't prove that IT is the thing that saves us.

Baptism is a sacrament. Adult baptism is an outward sign of what has already taken place within us; new birth, new life, having our sins washed away.
I do not have a problem with infant baptism either - true, the baby hasn't repented and been born again, but it is a symbol that God loves them and Christ died for them - without their needing to DO anything to "earn" it. It is a perfect picture of the fact that no one can earn God's love, grace and blessings; we need only to receive them.

Baptism is special; but let's not put it in place of the Lord's atoning death on the cross. If it could grant us forgiveness and save us, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die at all; his cousin John was baptising.

 

[Loren T.]

Truth check:
Baptism washes away sin: Acts 22:16
Baptism connects us to Christ's death: Romans 6:3
Baptism connects us to Christ's burial Romans 6:4
Baptism clothes ourselves with Christ: Galatians 3:27
Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21
Baptism is what Jesus did to make "a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless" Ephesians 5:25-27
Baptism is what Jesus mentions first in making disciples of all nations Matthew 28:19-20
Baptism is "for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39

Declaring that what Jesus installed and commanded to do, what God the Holy Spirit does through baptism for infants, how baptism connects us to Jesus' life\death\resurrection as "works salvation" a "work we or some other mere person does" is borderline contemptuous of God and his Word.

Leaving aside the debate about what baptism does for a believer for a moment, let's again point out that none of those verse have anything to do with baptism of infants. I'm not dissing believers baptism as a beautiful symbol. But no where are you told to baptize babies. It's a church tradition that developed later. Unfortunately, it creates a false idea of what salvation is, and I believe many are depending on their infant batism to save them eternally. The sacrements are all wonderful symbols, but one is saved solely by faith in Christ' s death and resurrection for them. How then, can a person be saved by something done to him before he can reason? By faith you are saved, not by works, whether they be circumcision or washing in water, or any other ritual practice.
John 5:24
John 6:40

 

[twin.spin]

The blood of Jesus washes away sin, Ephesians 1:7; 1 John 1:9
The Lord's supper connects us to Christ's death, as, obviously, does the cross.

Paul tells us to clothe ourselves with Christ, Romans 13:14, and constantly teaches that we should be in Christ. Jesus tells us we should be united to, and remain in, the True Vine, John 15.
We can't be baptised every day; yet we can be in Christ every day.



Baptism doesn't save; the atoning death of Jesus, who said "it is finished" on the cross, saves.
Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except through me", John 14:6. Not, "you can come some of the way to the Father through me, but you must complete your salvation by being baptised".



That was his death.
If Jesus had not died and reconciled us to God, there would be NO church; we would be nowhere.



Yes; that doesn't prove that IT is the thing that saves us.

Baptism is a sacrament. Adult baptism is an outward sign of what has already taken place within us; new birth, new life, having our sins washed away.
I do not have a problem with infant baptism either - true, the baby hasn't repented and been born again, but it is a symbol that God loves them and Christ died for them - without their needing to DO anything to "earn" it. It is a perfect picture of the fact that no one can earn God's love, grace and blessings; we need only to receive them.

Baptism is special; but let's not put it in place of the Lord's atoning death on the cross. If it could grant us forgiveness and save us, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die at all; his cousin John was baptising.

God the Holy Spirit teaches in Scripture that baptism does indeed save: 1 Peter 3:20-21

20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

21 and this water* symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—
not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

* referring to the flood water that Noah was saved by​

The Bible explains that people enjoy the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ his Son (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28).

The Bible also teaches that baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:20-21)

The Bible also teaches baptism washes away our sins (Acts 22:16).

The Bible also teaches that baptism gives people those very blessings of life and forgiveness (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5-7; 1 Peter 3:21)

Therefore we can rightfully say that baptism creates the faith that connects us to Jesus and brings into our lives all the blessings he won by his holy life, sacrificial death and glorious resurrection.

 

[twin.spin]

Leaving aside the debate about what baptism does for a believer for a moment, let's again point out that none of those verse have anything to do with baptism of infants. I'm not dissing believers baptism as a beautiful symbol. But no where are you told to baptize babies. It's a church tradition that developed later. Unfortunately, it creates a false idea of what salvation is, and I believe many are depending on their infant batism to save them eternally. The sacrements are all wonderful symbols, but one is saved solely by faith in Christ' s death and resurrection for them. How then, can a person be saved by something done to him before he can reason? By faith you are saved, not by works, whether they be circumcision or washing in water, or any other ritual practice.
John 5:24
John 6:40

Infants and children are to be baptized because they are included in the Lord’s command to baptize “all nations” (Matthew 28:19-20), they have a need for forgiveness (Psalm 51:5) and they can believe through the power of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 18:6; Luke 18:15-17).

Peter told the crowd that “The promise is for you and your children.” The promise of receiving the Holy Spirit through a heart changed by the gospel (Acts 2:38) was held out for the adults in the crowd and their children—not when their children became adults, but for their children right then and there.

Again, declaring that what Jesus installed and commanded to do, what God the Holy Spirit does through baptism for infants, how baptism connects us to Jesus' life\death\resurrection as "works salvation" a "work we or some other mere person does" is borderline contemptuous of God and his Word.

Faith is gift of God worked by God the H.S. … not via through work of man using decision theology.