DO CHILDREN GO TO HEAVEN ?

[Doveaman]

I agree : I don't believe children go to hell bit I need a specific scripture thay says so , not just peoples sayso

There is nothing in the scriptures that specifically tells us where infants go after death. The best we can do is to infer from scriptures where they do not go.

The scriptures speak of two groups of dead people who will be resurrection, those who have done good and will rise to eternal life, and those who have done evil and will rise to be condemned:

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." -- (John 5:28-29).

Do infants fall into any of these two groups?

Do infants live good lives or evil lives?

If the answer to these two questions is ‘yes’, then the verses quoted above gives us the answer to your question; infants will either rise to eternal life based on their good lives, or they will rise to be condemned based on their evil lives.

But if the answers to the two question is ‘no’, this would mean that infants are not included in the two groups quoted above, but can be considered a separate group among the dead.

The question, then, is, what will become of that separate group of infants who have died?

I offer two possibilities:

1) The infants may simply remain dead, never to be resurrected, and cease to exists.

2) The infants may be resurrected in a different resurrection and given a second chance to live their natural lives again.

I think the second possibilities is more likely, even though we are not told for sure in the scriptures.

But what we do know for sure is that the scriptures do not tell us that infants go to heaven when they die.

If babies die and go to heaven, then it would have been better for all mankind to die in childbirth rather than live to adulthood with the possibility of going to hell.

Why would God allow some babies to die and go to heaven, while allowing others to become adults and go to hell?

It doesn't seem fair to me.

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all:

I felt to post this again since it did not get much discussion and perhaps some didn’t understand my point

This shows clearly that infants who come into the world are spiritually alive and have the Light and they are not condemned until they hate the light and have sin revive


“Here is a start of this discussion. But a first question to ask is, "did Jesus Christ die for an infant. And are all infants in Adam when they come into the world?

"9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."(john 1:9 KJV)

this Light is in every man that cometh into the world including children. This is the free gift that came upon all men through the work of Christ on the cross. This Light is Christ, the seed, the word sown, the truth they hold inwardly and that which may be known of God manifest in them as scripture shows

"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."(romans 5:18 KJV)

"11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."(Luke 8:11,12 KJV)

"12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."(Hebrews 4:12,13 KJV)

"19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."(Romans 1:19 KJV)

When a child comes into the world they have this free gift given through the grace of Christ for them and through his work done in time on the cross. This is the mystery hid from ages and this mystery is Christ in you the hope of glory. A child is in this light until they hate the light. They are not condemned until they hate this light and until their deeds are done that are evil as scripture shows,

"19 And this is the condemnation, [the reason men are condemned] that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."(John 3:19-21 KJV)

Here we see that none are condemned until they hate the light and until they do evil and knowingly do it. A child has not done any good or evil yet and so they do not have knowledge and are in ignorance. If they are not condemned yet then they are saved by the grace of God. They are in ignorance and God winks in times of ignorance as he did in the OT as well with many,

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

and to them that know to do good and do it not to them it is sin. if they do not know they are ignorant

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

and sin is transgression of a known law. But a child, or one day old infant does not know good or evil yet, they have ignorance and so sin is not imputed to them they do not have the law or understanding of it yet.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

"
Romans 5:13
"...sin is not imputed when there is no law"

and so as a child they are without the law and spiritually alive through the grace of God and the free gift given to them through Christ death in time. This is the state of all infants who are born. They are like sheep, and when they sin they go astray. All we like sheep have gone astray.

Paul said ( speaking of his time as a child without the law)

Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

Here we must break down this verse in every detail

What does Paul mean he was "alive"without the law? When was Paul "without the law"? This must mean when he was a infant or young child in ignorance.

What does Paul mean he was "alive" once. This must refer to spiritual life, because he then says he died and he did not die physically.

When the commandment came (or when the light of the law shone in his mind and heart) and he understood it then his "sin revived", this is his sin nature that was in a kind of dormant state and it was then provoked by the law and he died (spiritually). This time when sin revives could be as some call an age of accountability, or when they are accountable and with knowledge before God.

I see this as the state of all infants and children in the world at lets say , one day old and later. But lets keep this discussion to a one day old infant that dies. If they die, i see this verse and others saying that they have not transgressed with knowledge the law and so are ignorant and not condemned because they have not hated the light yet by doing actual transgressions. Sin is not imputed where there is no law.

So all infants are "alive"(spiritually) until they understand the law or the light that reproves them. Then they have their sin nature revive and they die (spiritually) and need to be born again.

this is just a starting point. I also see when Jesus blessed the infants he was showing they are saved and their angels do always behold the face of the father

 

[Dave-W]

I don't believe children go to hell bit I need a specific scripture thay says so , not just peoples sayso

Why? God does not owe us an explicit answer on every detail of our walk with Him.

And with good reason. If we have all the answers handed to us, we lose motivation to keep pressing into HIM.

 

[Dave-W]

To all:

I felt to post this again since it did not get much discussion and perhaps some didn’t understand my point

This shows clearly that infants who come into the world are spiritually alive and have the Light and they are not condemned until they hate the light and have sin revive

Wow. That is the very definition of a manufactured doctrine.

this is just a starting point. I also see when Jesus blessed the infants he was showing they are saved and their angels do always behold the face of the father

And all of those children HE blessed were Jews who were born into the Mosaic covenant - which is a salvic covenant.

Now the vast majority of christians are gentile (no claim to the Mosaic covenant) and are born again in the New Covenant. Unlike Moses, the New Covenant is an opt-in choice. There is no being born into it. You have to CHOOSE to join it; something infants and children cannot do.

 

[twin.spin]

I am always cautious about people who build entire theology's out of a verse here, and a verse there. When one begins to read entire books of the Bible and looks at overall themes and takes individual verses in context of the whole, a more healthy theology emerges. And when I do that with these passages, I find that it is not baptism that saves, the emphasis is always on grace and faith first and foremost. And when you apply that to infants, and find that faith can not be assumed, all that is left is grace. Not confidence that washing with water does anything, but confidence that God loves the innocent. There is no harm dedicating babies, as long as it is made clear that this is symbolic and not to be equated with saving faith. Faith is always in Christ, not in any ritual act. We are justified through faith, and Christs blood. Romans 5 . Not by works that any man should boast.

Concerning the bold … then best you ought to get healthy.

It was you who stated this as general rule:

Unless there is a Scripture which specifically says _fill in the blank__ all of this remains conjecture and unsupported Scripturally.​

then I'd refer you to post #193, it is not conjecture and is supported Scripturally.

 

[Loren T.]

Concerning the bold … then best you ought to get healthy.

It was you who stated this as general rule:

Unless there is a Scripture which specifically says _fill in the blank__ all of this remains conjecture and unsupported Scripturally.​

then I'd refer you to post #193, it is not conjecture and is supported Scripturally.

I have read all the verses you claim support infant baptism and found that none of them really do. This is why I suggest always reading verses in the broader context of the passage. We can go on forever on the subject, or agree to disagree and let God be the judge.

 

[Loren T.]

Not analysing, nor studying, nor drawing ones own conclusions - trust in Jesus completely, know in your heart Soul and Mind that Jesus is both Physically and Spiritually Present and He will guide you in Gods Holy Discernment on His Holy Word and on all matters and things in daily lives.

Both protestants and Catholics claim to trust in Jesus completely. In fact, trusting in Jesus completely and not trusting in your Baptism or any other "sacrament" is exactly what I am advocating. Catholics say Jesus is present in the eucharist. I agree, we probably disagree as to the meaning of Jesus being present. He is not just present when we take the cup and bread, he is present with believers at all times, everywhere. ( The eastern orthodox will agree with me here, I think) The value of the sacraments is to focus our minds and hearts on him more fully, but that can also be done just as well in a free flowing pentecostal service or in the woods or by your bed. God isn't limited to being present only in certain places or certain times, he indwells his people, whether they be Catholic or Protestant or non denominational.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Wow. That is the very definition of a manufactured doctrine.

No it's not. I am rightly dividing the word of truth.

Questions for you to consider

1. Do all people have the true Light given to them as they come into the world?

2. Is the true Light Christ, the Seed, the word of God sown ?

3. If men hate the light are they THEN condemned?

4. If they do not hate the light are they condemned?

5. If an person if condemned for hating the light, is this because their deeds were evil and they knew to do good and did evil instead?

6. Is sin imputed where there is no law?

7. If a person does not know to do good are they in actual transgressions?

8. Does a one day old infant inherit a sin nature from Adam, and so they also can die?

9. Where no law is is there transgression?

10. Was paul without the law once? and so without transgression in ignorance?

11. Is not this the state of every infant born? They are without the law once and spiritually alive in that state?

And all of those children HE blessed were Jews who were born into the Mosaic covenant - which is a salvic covenant.

No it was not being born into the literal families and under a literal outward Mosaic covenant that saves men. None can keep the law and all sinned and broke God's covenant. If they were able to perfectly keep the law then they could live by it. But none can. The law is to expose them that they cannot keep it and to break them and to expose sin and bring them unto Christ to be justified by faith.

Some may have thought that because they had Abraham as their father they were saved. This was wrong.

Jesus was speaking of infants who knew nothing of any covenant.

Read Romans 2:14,15 showing that the gentiles also had the work of the law written in their hearts and God will one day judge the "secrets of men" according to the gospel.

Now the vast majority of christians are gentile (no claim to the Mosaic covenant) and are born again in the New Covenant. Unlike Moses, the New Covenant is an opt-in choice. There is no being born into it. You have to CHOOSE to join it; something infants and children cannot do.

Jesus rebuked the man named Nicodemus for a similar argument that you bring and he said "you must be born again" Nicodemus may have thought he was ok being born in the covenant and among Israel. He was dead wrong.

Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

"25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."(Romans 2:25-29 KJV)

 

[twin.spin]

No it's not. I am rightly dividing the word of truth.

Questions for you to consider

1. Do all people have the true Light given to them as they come into the world?

2. Is the true Light Christ, the Seed, the word of God sown ?

3. If men hate the light are they THEN condemned?

4. If they do not hate the light are they condemned?

5. If an person if condemned for hating the light, is this because their deeds were evil and they knew to do good and did evil instead?

6. Is sin imputed where there is no law?

7. If a person does not know to do good are they in actual transgressions?

8. Does a one day old infant inherit a sin nature from Adam, and so they also can die?

9. Where no law is is there transgression?

10. Was paul without the law once? and so without transgression in ignorance?

11. Is not this the state of every infant born? They are without the law once and spiritually alive in that state?

Answers:
1A: No …that's why Jesus taught "flesh gives birth to flesh"

2A: Yes … i.e. sower and the seed

3A: Yes … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

4A: Yes … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

5A: Yes … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

6A: Yes … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ Romans 5:14 \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

7A: Yes … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ Romans 5:14 \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

8A: Yes … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ "wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23\ Romans 5:14 \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

9A: Yes … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ Romans 5:14 \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

10A: No and no … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ Romans 5:14 \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

11A: No and no … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ Romans 5:14 \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

 

[John tower]

Why? God does not owe us an explicit answer on every detail of our walk with Him.

And with good reason. If we have all the answers handed to us, we lose motivation to keep pressing into HIM.

If I get specific spiritual direction through his word it strengthens me and remotivates me : only when I am confused do I lose strength !

 

[Meowzltov]

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[hedrick]

The Scriptural basis for all this is a bit weak, but I'd say we have at least some Scriptural indication that:

* Children are a model of faith, from Jesus' teaching
* Not everyone ends up saved.

Now we get to inference:

* If all children are saved, and not all adults are, why would God put adults at this risk? I don't know for sure, but it seems likely that there's some reason that he wants adults. I'm not suggesting the children go to limbo, but I suspect that adults in eternity have something that children don't.

* The plausibility of this scheme depends upon how many adults are saved. Some people conjecture that around 10% of people are saved. God must *really* want whatever development occurs if he's willing to damn 90% of people. However if (as I believe) the inclusivist understanding is right, then the rate of rejection need not be so high.

* The scheme that at a certain age God's requirements reverse seems odd. The day before we're saved. The day afterwards if we don't become Christians we're damned. It's not impossible, but it seems implausible, even if the age is different for different people. I think it becomes more plausible if we say that we remain saved until we reject God, something that some people do, but maybe not that many.

Many accounts of salvation leave the impression that God is prejudiced against adults. It's not impossible, but it seems unlikely.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are in error in many answers you gave here.

I asked

"1. Do all people have the true Light given to them as they come into the world?

And you said,

Answers:
1A: No …that's why Jesus taught "flesh gives birth to flesh"

Scripture corrects you here

"John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.'

And so infants have the true Light given to them when they come into the world as God's free gift upon all men through the work of Jesus Christ n time.

Yes, that which is born after the flesh is flesh and no man can save himself. thats why God saves in grace and mercy and gives the free gift to all men through Christ work John 1:9, Romans 5, Romans 1 :18,19 KJV etc. etc..

I asked,

"2. Is the true Light Christ, the Seed, the word of God sown ?"

And you said,

2A: Yes … i.e. sower and the seed

And so the Light is the seed and word sown in all men, infants as well. The parable covers all hearts. And so all infants have the seed the true Light the word sown.

I asked,

"4. If they do not hate the light are they condemned?"

And you said,

4A: Yes …

Scripture corrects you again. People are only condemned when they hate the light as Jesus said when their deeds are evil, or when they actually transgress and do evil. Infants have not done any good or evil yet, they are in ignorance.

"19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

and I asked,

"6. Is sin imputed where there is no law?"

And you said,

6A: Yes …

Scripture corrects you again.

Romans 5:13
"...but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

I asked,

"7. If a person does not know to do good are they in actual transgressions?"

And you said,

7A: Yes …

Scripture corrects you again.

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

and sin is transgression of a known law, understanding.

I asked,

"9. Where no law is is there transgression?"

And you said,

9A: Yes …

Scripture corrects you again.

Romans 4:15
"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

I asked,

"10. Was Paul without the law once? and so without transgression in ignorance?"

And you said,

10A: No and no … original sin -> "flesh gives birth to flesh" \ Romans 5:14 \ Psalm 14:1-3 \ Psalm 53:1-3 \ Romans 3:10

Scripture corrects you again,

"9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."(Romans 7:9)

Romans 4:15
"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

I asked,

"11. Is not this the state of every infant born? They are without the law once and spiritually alive in that state?"

11A: No and no …

It was the state of Paul. And I believe from scripture the state of all infants, they are alive spiritually until they have sin revive and they die spiritually.


'

 

[Dave-W]

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

And all of those children were Jews born into the Mosaic Covenant.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And all of those children were Jews born into the Mosaic Covenant.

John 1 - 9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. “
This true Light was given to every person that comes into the world, not just Jews.

And all men everywhere can feel after God inwardly and find him.

Acts 17 - 23. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25. Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27. That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”

Romans 2 - 14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

Romans 10 - 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Romans 2 - 10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: ...11. For there is no respect of persons with God. 14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

 

[Dave-W]

And all men everywhere can feel after God inwardly and find him.

Interesting that every one of your scriptures were AFTER the resurrection, while the verse I was replying to was BEFORE the resurrection.

Different world.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Interesting that every one of your scriptures were AFTER the resurrection, while the verse I was replying to was BEFORE the resurrection.

Different world.

John 1:9 is from before and after

 

[LoveofTruth]

Interesting that every one of your scriptures were AFTER the resurrection, while the verse I was replying to was BEFORE the resurrection.

Different world.

Romans 2:14 speaks of before the resurrection also and after

 

[Dave-W]

John 1:9 is from before and after

After, actually.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Interesting that every one of your scriptures were AFTER the resurrection, while the verse I was replying to was BEFORE the resurrection.

Different world.

Acts 17 the section I quote refers to men of all times all over the world