LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
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Why did Adam and Eve sin? We’re they already sinners? NoOkay I see where you're going. I've kind of touched on this a bit, but I'm not sure if it's being understood.
In the negative it is true: People "choose" to sin. That doesn't make it an open and shut case for free will. The question is not do people choose to sin. They do, and they do it willingly. The better question is why do people sin?
Sinning is what people do because they are sinners. In contrast, no one can do good apart from the work of God. They have to be given a new heart to "will" what is righteous
Sorry for the herding.I can't help but feel I'm being herded
Adam is responsible for his sin. God declared the curse. Are there implications I'm missing?
God's ordaining that people do something does not equate to people being "ordered" to do those things.If God had ordered it, there would be no need for Christ to cry "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" since they would have just been following orders.
I have a very good understanding of both of those two terms.This is both a misunderstanding of predestination and sovereignty
I didn't say otherwise. You'll get no argument from me because of your saying those things. Where did you get the idea that there would be?Sovereignty doesn't, and never has, meant absolute determination of the movement of every person and molecule under one's control. Rather, sovereignty is a term of Dominion - the power and right to make and enforce rules and laws. A sovereign may delegate, allow freedom within bounds, punish wrongdoers, etc. A sovereign does not have to micromanage, and it would be a poor sovereign who forced his people to break the laws he himself made.
Both. Just as the authoritative Calvinist Westminster Confession of Faith says.Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?
Works for me.Predestination, as per the Greek, means to 'pre-limit' or 'set boundaries beforehand.' It does not have connotations of the English term 'destiny.' God setting the limits and boundaries of the sea is an example of predestination, but God determining the motion of every water molecule and every wave is not.
As I have seen you do here with me - you are saying that you reject what Calvinists have clearly shown to any fair minded Bible believer to be scriptural.Not having perfect knowledge or rejecting one earthly theory among many doesn't mean they are rejecting scripture, especially if they base their rejection of that theory in scripture.
What is the curse (the fall)? Is it not that Adam's descendants would be made sinners?
In other words, God does (in some sense) will the we sin, since He, through the curse, made us sinners.
God could have given us the "new" heart right from the beginning.
sunlover1 said: ↑
God knew they would do it, but He didn't order it done. Those are two different things.
I know it was God's will for Jesus to suffer and die, that we might live.Au contraire!
"Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand." Isaiah 53:10
I think this right here is where the confusion comes in.While the sovereign will of God is a difficult discussion - attempts to deny His absolute sovereign predestination of everything which happens in His creation is an attempt to diminish Him and it does not please Him for anyone to do so.
One of us is being deceived. It's really that simple.People may be well meaning, I suppose, in their unscriptural conjectures - but they are rejecting the Word of God non the less.
I'm surprised at this statement to be sure.Calvinists may have some faults theologically. They are debatable.
But their theology concerning the sovereignty of God is a well meaning (and pretty much right on IMO) attempt to tackle a difficult subject.
It is better by far than the statements of those who simply want to criticize while adding little to the theological discussion on the subject.
I did not feel criticized at all! Communication is a capital thing isn't it?P.S. - This criticism could have been leveled at any number of folks here. I simple chose your post to respond to because it was there and because you were the original OP.
so you're saying that yes, God ordains sin?God pre ordains both Good and Evil : Col 1(17) !
It's because I know the Scriptures and my approach is exegetical, from there I'll simply do an exposition. The numbers of the hairs on your head in that context is don't worry about the cares of this life. That's not a private interpretation. What is more the knowledge of evil somehow being beneficial to us runs diametrically opposed to the message of Genesis 3 and the entire testimony of Scripture.Man the way you wrest scriptures with your endless private interpretstions is scary : I'd be afraid to continually explain away God's word the way you do : It does not matter what verse you are given you explain them all away in your own reasonings : Like Christ said : You make the word of God of none effect by your traditions : God's word cannot change you because you just explain it away whatever it says : Your mind is made up : don't confuse you with the facts !
I am not in the Pelagius camp fullyAre you in the Pelagius camp?
Do you think that we are in the same condition that Adam and Eve had?
Based on what premise exactly? The bondage of the wills?Simple question
Faith is also the gift of God, and to believe the gospel you must be born again. Otherwise they won't believe
Good as in good to your fellow man, yes. Good as in good works given by God, no. Jesus even said apart from me you can do nothing. I'm also thinking of the rich young ruler. "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" Mark 10:18
Romans 3 can be applicable. No one is righteous- besides God and God alone. He even prepared our good works before hand. Our righteousness is as filthy rags.
The Pelagius camp believes that you are not a sinner until you actually commit a sin, the sin of Adam was his responsibility. This has been condemned outright as heresy by Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant traditions but seems to raise it's ugly head from time to time. St. Thomas Aquinas actually debated Pelagius and was very adamant in his denial of this doctrine. While I have reservations about Catholic doctrine from time to time, this isn't one of the things I have a problem with, I think they are spot on, at least in formal doctrine.I am not in the Pelagius camp fully
The Scripture camp is stronger
God's control of space time is absolute.Simple question
All pre ordained by God as part if his deliberate plan : to say otherwise is to imply that God is not in control of his own creation : When you start questioning God you are straying onto dangerous ground !
Faith is not a gift of God. This is a mistranslation of Eph 2:8. 'Faith' is not the gift there, nor can it be in the Greek as faith is in the feminine but the gift is neuter. The gift is the process of salvation, by grace and through faith.
I am not in the Pelagius camp fully
The Scripture camp is stronger
We are born again after we believe, not to believe! Placing the new birth prior to faith is contrary to everything scripture says about baptism, our new life in Christ, and the indwelling spirit which only believers receive.
[Question: Does regeneration precede or follow faith?
Those who believe in Christ submit to the Spirit and seek to obey. Christ gives us guidance. God wills and works in us to do His will - like a Master who motivates his servant and gives all the tools and guidance needed to perform the tasks the Master has prepared. [Note this doesn't mean every servant will perform them in the same way, or will obey perfectly, as the parable of the talents in
God's ordaining that people do something does not equate to people being "ordered" to do those things.
Both. Just as the authoritative Calvinist Westminster Confession of Faith says.
“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”
“God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.
…… Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. …………. . God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.”
That is with the obvious exception of noting that "pre-limiting" and "setting boundaries beforehand" does determine what can and cannot happen and therefore what can and cannot be the destinies of things or persons in God's creation both ultimately and along the way.
I'm glad you do not personally believe that, and I know it is not a view held by every Calvinist, but it is a common one. I've encountered several Calvinists (such as J.D. Greear) or other teachers that propose if a single molecule acted outside the *direct guidance* of God telling it or pushing it exactly where to go the universe would unravel, and things of that nature. Calvinism, as with any theory, is not a monolithic belief where every Calvinist believes the exact same things on everything.The doctrine of predestination does not teach that God is associated intimately with the motion of every water molecule and every wave in the sea. Nor does the doctrine of sovereignty.
"Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" and "In Him we live and move and have our being." and "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father."
As I have seen you do here with me - you are saying that you reject what Calvinists have clearly shown to any fair minded Bible believer to be scriptural.
You appear to be doing it because you wrongly attribute to them things they do not teach.
If you are basing your theology on scripture only and not emotion – you will be in line with what true Calvinism teaches at least as far as these particular doctrines are concerned. In line with your straw men – not so much.
Because typing has no emotion, I am trying to politely disagree with just about everything you said on this post. Jesus tells Nicodemus that you have to be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Nicodemus asks him how to do it and the answer goes like this: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” So how does that work if professing faith precedes regeneration?
This part is pretty good unless motivation is like a coach cheering me on to cross the finish line. I think He is more active in the work.
I am impressed with your thoroughness and I actually appreciate the representation of your argument. I just don't agree because I think men save themselves in your interpretation (i.e. "the ball is in our court").
God doesn't get the credit or the glory for a sinner saved. After all, everyone who make the right "decision" will follow God, while all those who aren't smart enough to make the right choice won't.
I believe men are spiritually dead(Eph 2) like it says, that faith is the gift of God(which many theologians interpret it that way), and that God gets 100% of the glory for everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord.
Is there room for men to boast if salvation precedes regeneration?
And why would men choose God when it's completely contrary to their nature(1 Cor. 2:14)?
Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, that was once, for all delivered to the saints, sounds like a gift to me.
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb. 12:2)
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude: 3)
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