Do all Fundamentalist believe in a Pre Trib Rapture

[redleghunter]

Will I know that the 2 IBFC I was involved in; taught this like it is a basic fundamental Bible belief which at first I was all right with, until I did my own research and
came to a Rapture=Christ 2nd Coming. And since Darby and Schoffield it seems to me like the PTR, is a very dogmatic view in at the least the few churches I been in.

The current pre-Trib eschatology is not based on Darby nor Schofield. It derives from Dallas Theological Seminary and can be traced to Walvood and later Ryrie.

 

[redleghunter]

The resurrection/rapture is one event, that happens at the coming of the Lord, whereby He gathers His Church together, in the clouds, in the air, to be with Him, before He destroys the wicked, at the brightness of His coming.

You see this as the first resurrection of the righteous? As opposed to the GWT resurrection?

 

[JLB777]

You see this as the first resurrection of the righteous? As opposed to the GWT resurrection?

I see this as what Paul taught the Church, as to when the Church was to be resurrected and raptured, which happens at His coming.

Those who are "in Christ".


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



JLB

 

[redleghunter]

I see this as what Paul taught the Church, as to when the Church was to be resurrected and raptured, which happens at His coming.

Those who are "in Christ".


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



JLB

Understand the above. Your view is historic futurist and frankly the view with the least tension Biblically (compared to all 'other' views).

What I was getting at is do you affirm there are two resurrections?

 

[JLB777]

Understand the above. Your view is historic futurist and frankly the view with the least tension Biblically (compared to all 'other' views).

What I was getting at is do you affirm there are two resurrections?

There is one resurrection for those who are Christ's, and it occurs at His coming.


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

• afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming

JLB

 

[redleghunter]

There is one resurrection for those who are Christ's, and it occurs at His coming.


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

• afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming

JLB

I agree. What about those who are not Christ's?

 

[JLB777]

I agree. What about those who are not Christ's?

They live not again.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Revelation 20:5

Which basically is the opposite of the resurrection of the dead in Christ.



JLB

 

[1watchman]

It depends what you mean by "fundamentalist," but some are Pre-Trib and others not.

The subject of pre-tribulation is a biblical truth (that should at least be embraced by all so-called "fundamentalists"); so, one needs to study it out in their Bible. One can see some ministry on this at the site: www.biblecounsel.homestead.com, and ask questions there.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The subject of pre-tribulation is a biblical truth (that should at least be embraced by all so-called "fundamentalists"); so, one needs to study it out in their Bible. One can see some ministry on this at the site: www.biblecounsel.homestead.com, and ask questions there.

Don't be brainwashed by the opinions of others. Study it out for yourself and you will find what you claimed to be true isn't Truth at all.

 

[1watchman]

The current pre-Trib eschatology is not based on Darby nor Schofield. It derives from Dallas Theological Seminary and can be traced to Walvood and later Ryrie.

You need to check the facts, redleg, for this ministry is from that revival of Church Truth in circa 1800 AD ---long before the Dallas seminary existed. J.N. Darby taught it and others such as C.I. Scofield explained it in his writings in the Scofield Reference Edition of the KJV.

 

[redleghunter]

You need to check the facts, redleg, for this ministry is from that revival of Church Truth in circa 1800 AD ---long before the Dallas seminary existed. J.N. Darby taught it and others such as C.I. Scofield explained it in his writings in the Scofield Reference Edition of the KJV.

I know the facts and presented them. Theologically what we have today in pre tribulation rapture theory is based on Walvoord, Ryrie and DTS. I've read their works and they don't use Darby and hardly Schofield. Ironside perhaps.

The internet has a lot of information which is false or incomplete. I've actually read the works of DTS theologians on eschatology. Perhaps more should.

 

[1watchman]

I will leave you to your bias, and as I explained it is the truth of the matter. The Lord knows that the matter was set forth long before the writings you choose to believe. It isn't the Internet, as you suppose that gives the source, but history. Look up and seek God's teaching.

 

[redleghunter]

I will leave you to your bias, and as I explained it is the truth of the matter. The Lord knows that.

I've read the works. Nothing Walvoord nor others from DTS is based on some hokey 19th century vision.

I made a decision years ago you tube videos and internet sites are not scholarship. I read actual books and scholarly historical works.

 

[Radagast]

I made a decision years ago you tube videos and internet sites are not scholarship.

Quoted for truth.

 

[lismore]

So after being involved in 2 Independent Baptist Churches and knowing of their teaching of the Pre Trib Rapture I was wondering is this normal for a fundamentalist view of Bible? As the more I have learn of this subject it is a different view by miles of my understanding.

Hello! Of the most importance in my opinion is: Jesus is coming, we will see those who died in the Lord (relatives, friends) again, make the most of every opportunity because the day is drawing near. God Bless You

 

[Complete in Thee]

So after being involved in 2 Independent Baptist Churches and knowing of their teaching of the Pre Trib Rapture I was wondering is this normal for a fundamentalist view of Bible? As the more I have learn of this subject it is a different view by miles of my understanding.

No

 

[Ron Gurley]

PLEASE: carefully define terms and not use labels.

"Fundamentalist"

"Pre Trib Rapture"

==================

Fundamentals...FROM....

Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaFundamentalist_Christianity

Here are my $.02 on "essentials" / Christ-following fundamental truths

1. The inerrancy of the Bible...in its original MSS as to major doctrinal truths. The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's life and ministry of miracles and the Creation account in Genesis...where POSSIBLE.

2. The Virgin Birth of and Deity of Jesus the Christ, the Divine Messiah...as FACT

3. His bodily resurrection, appearances, and ascension...as FACT... and THE PROMISED physical return (Second Coming) ...of Jesus the God-Man

4. The "substitutionary atonement" of Christ on the Cross...Jesus the God-Man died FOR sins FOR men FOR all time

These BELIEFS / FAITHS are NOT necessary for salvation.The Apostles Creed is similar....the "We Believes...". It is a short recitation of doctrinal truths which improve spiritual wisdom and prevent doctrinal UN-truths.

The "Rapturo and the "Second Coming" are near simultaneous on a time line. Time: 3.5 years after the beginning of 7 year of "tribulations".

1 Thess. 4 + Matthew 24

 

[Ron Gurley]

Article XIX—The Tribulation
We believe that the translation of the church will be followed by the fulfillment of Israel’s seventieth week (Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1–19:21) during which the church, the body of Christ, will be in heaven. The whole period of Israel’s seventieth week will be a time of judgment on the whole earth, at the end of which the times of the Gentiles will be brought to a close. The latter half of this period will be the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7), which our Lord called the great tribulation (Matt. 24:15–21). We believe that universal righteousness will not be realized previous to the second coming of Christ, but that the world is day by day ripening for judgment and that the age will end with a fearful apostasy.

Article XX—The Second Coming of Christ
We believe that the period of great tribulation in the earth will be climaxed by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to the earth as He went, in person on the clouds of heaven, and with power and great glory to introduce the millennial age, to bind Satan and place him in the abyss, to lift the curse which now rests upon the whole creation, to restore Israel to her own land and to give her the realization of God’s covenant promises, and to bring the whole world to the knowledge of God (Deut. 30:1–10; Isa. 11:9; Ezek. 37:21–28; Matt. 24:15–25:46; Acts 15:16–17; Rom. 8:19–23; 11:25–27; 1 Tim. 4:1–3; 2 Tim. 3:1–5; Rev. 20:1–3).

REF: Doctrinal Statement | Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS)

 

[JLB777]

Article XIX—The Tribulation
We believe that the translation of the church will be followed by the fulfillment of Israel’s seventieth week (Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1–19:21) during which the church, the body of Christ, will be in heaven. The whole period of Israel’s seventieth week will be a time of judgment on the whole earth, at the end of which the times of the Gentiles will be brought to a close. The latter half of this period will be the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7), which our Lord called the great tribulation (Matt. 24:15–21). We believe that universal righteousness will not be realized previous to the second coming of Christ, but that the world is day by day ripening for judgment and that the age will end with a fearful apostasy.

Article XX—The Second Coming of Christ
We believe that the period of great tribulation in the earth will be climaxed by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to the earth as He went, in person on the clouds of heaven, and with power and great glory to introduce the millennial age, to bind Satan and place him in the abyss, to lift the curse which now rests upon the whole creation, to restore Israel to her own land and to give her the realization of God’s covenant promises, and to bring the whole world to the knowledge of God (Deut. 30:1–10; Isa. 11:9; Ezek. 37:21–28; Matt. 24:15–25:46; Acts 15:16–17; Rom. 8:19–23; 11:25–27; 1 Tim. 4:1–3; 2 Tim. 3:1–5; Rev. 20:1–3).

REF: Doctrinal Statement | Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS)

The Church will be gathered together to Him in clouds, the resurrection and rapture, at His Coming.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



There are 3 scriptural facts that concern the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which once these 3 things are known, there is no more confusion about this subject.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.

• And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16

2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17

3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


The 3 major things that occur at His coming:

1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. The Rapture.
3. The destruction of the antichrist.

Once each person comes to understand these three major truths that occur at His coming, there will be no more confusion about this doctrine.



JLB

 

[Copperhead]

Actually, there are multiple resurrections for those that are righteous. Yeshua, in several instances the Gospels, taught us to look at the teaching about the Harvest. That is in Leviticus 23.

There were saints that were resurrected at the time Yeshua was killed (Mat 27:52). Many entered the city and were seen by others. According to Leviticus 23, the first cutting of the harvest is to be waived before God as the First Fruits of the harvest. Yeshua was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits. He told Mary not to handle him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. It was His job as Messiah to present the First Fruits of the harvest, the resurrected saints at that time, to the Father.

There will be a future main harvest. The resurrection and removal of the righteous either before or at the start of the 70th week of Daniel, or Time of Jacobs Trouble.

That will leave the corners of the field of the harvest, or the gleanings. Those are gathered later at the end of this time. Then the harvest is complete.

In even the most obscure part of the Torah (Law), put Yeshua right in the middle of it and it comes alive. It is like a hologram. A holographic picture is non defined and looks like a dark room mistake. But when it is illuminated with the light that made it, it comes alive and is a 3 dimensional image with extravagant detail. Just like when the scripture is illuminated with the light of the one who gave it, Yeshua, it comes alive.

And there never has been single resurrection or removal of the righteous taught in scripture. Enoch was raptured (removed, caught away, snatched away). Rapture etymology is from the Latin Raptus, which is a direct translation of the Greek Harpazo. Elijah was raptured. The saints that were resurrected at the time of Yeshua's death were likewise removed and delivered to the Father by Yeshua as the First Fruits of the harvest of those that are made righteous thru Yeshua. The two witness of Revelation will be resurrected and raptured.

Let's see, that is 4 instances right there, two alone after Yeshua came to the earth at His first coming, and neither regarding those that believe after Yeshua's first coming and before the Tribulation. And given the teaching of the harvest in Lev 23, it really shouldn't be all that problematic of the possibility of the main harvest resurrection at the beginning or shortly before the Tribulation (Daniel's 70th week) period., which will leave the gleanings of the harvest to be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation period.