Dispensationalism Refuted

[random person]

Random, the elements Peter is talking about are not the same ones Paul is talking about in Galatians. Peter is talking about the planet and the heavens, Paul is talking about the ways of the world, or traditions. Study out the word "ordinances," as it also has this dual meaning.

You constantly do that - quote passages you obviously conclude prove your view.

You just exposed yourself DANOH as laying-on a lot of bull. Lesson - always check the Greek first before posting.

Strong's Concordance

stoicheion: one of a row, hence a letter (of the alphabet), by ext. the elements (of knowledge)
Original Word: στοιχεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: stoicheion
Phonetic Spelling: (stoy-khi'-on)
Short Definition: a heavenly body, an element
Definition: (a) plur: the heavenly bodies, (b) a rudiment, an element, a rudimentary principle, an elementary rule.
HELPS Word-studies

4747 stoixeíon– properly, fundamentals, like with the basic components of a philosophy, structure, etc.; (figuratively) "first principles," like the basic fundamentals of Christianity.

[4747 (stoixeíon) refers to "the rudiments with which mankind . . . were indoctrinated (before the time of Christ), i.e. the elements of religious training or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles" (J. Thayer).

The RSV however renders stoixeia as "elemental spirits," i.e. spiritual powers or "cosmic spirits" (DNTT, 2, 828). This views 4747 /stoixeíon ("elements") as ancient astral beings associated with the very beginning (make-up) of the earth.]


And well, well looky here Danoh, the Greek word "stoicheion" occurs only SEVEN times in the New Testament. And guess what, Paul and Peter are using the same "stoicheion"!!!

Englishman's Concordance
Strong's Greek 4747
7 Occurrences



στοιχεῖα — 6 Occ.
στοιχείων — 1 Occ.

GALATIANS 4:3 N-ANP
GRK: ὑπὸ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: under the elemental things of the world.
KJV: under the elements of the world:
INT: under the basic principles of the world
GALATIANS 4:9 N-ANP
GRK: καὶ πτωχὰ στοιχεῖα οἷς πάλιν
NAS: and worthless elemental things, to which
KJV: beggarly elements, whereunto
INT: and beggarly principles to which again

Colossians 2:8 N-ANP
GRK: κατὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: according to the elementary principles of the world,
KJV: after the rudiments of the world,
INT: according to the principles of the world

Colossians 2:20 N-GNP
GRK: ἀπὸ τῶν στοιχείων τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: with Christ to the elementary principles of the world,
KJV: from the rudiments of the world,
INT: from the principles of the world

Hebrews 5:12 N-NNP
GRK: τινὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τῆς ἀρχῆς
NAS: to teach you the elementary principles
KJV: [be] the first principles of the oracles
INT: what [are] the principles of the beginning

2 PETER 3:10 N-NNP
GRK: ῥοιζηδὸν παρελεύσονται στοιχεῖα δὲ καυσούμενα
NAS: with a roar and the elements will be destroyed
KJV: and the elements shall melt
INT: with rushing noise will pass away elements moreover burning with heat

2 PETER 3:12 N-NNP
GRK: λυθήσονται καὶ στοιχεῖα καυσούμενα τήκεται
NAS: by burning, and the elements will melt
KJV: and the elements shall melt
INT: will be dissolved and [the] elements burning with heat shall melt


Strong's Greek: 4747. ????????? (stoicheion) -- one of a row, hence a letter (of the alphabet), by ext. the elements (of knowledge)


Check your sources!

 

[Danoh]

Very well, Random.

Never mind that compilers of Dictionaries arrive at the sense of words by HOW they are used where they are, and as a result one can not go by the various definitions alone. Rather, by the same process - by how they are used where they are.

All you did was pick the meaning you wanted.

Whats even worse is your glorying in that as some sort of a cheap victory over a Believer.

Fortunately, I know I am not the issue you would turn this into. Shame on you - Christ alone is the issue you arrogant fool.

And people wonder why I sometimes address some so harshly.

Again WE are NOT the issue - Christ alone is...

 

[Interplanner]

Random,
I've gone through the comps of Paul and Peter and I don't think 2 Pet 3 is using 'stoichiea' in the same sense at all. Paul is talking about Judaism and other elementary religious beliefs which are weak and miserable in Gal 4 and Col 2 (a sort of neo-Judaism). I really don't think Peter drifted away from the concrete meaning of actual things that burn and atoms that compose our universe.

I have been reading in Greek for years and was a TA and took a year of it in a master's program where I was translating Josephus.

 

[Danoh]

Random,
I've gone through the comps of Paul and Peter and I don't think 2 Pet 3 is using 'stoichiea' in the same sense at all. Paul is talking about Judaism and other elementary religious beliefs which are weak and miserable in Gal 4 and Col 2 (a sort of neo-Judaism). I really don't think Peter drifted away from the concrete meaning of actual things that burn and atoms that compose our universe.

I have been reading in Greek for years and was a TA and took a year of it in a master's program where I was translating Josephus.

For once you and I agree

Though I get there simply from studying how words and or word phrases are used where they are, as, over the years I have found the Early Modern English of the KJV I study from is more than adequate to the task of communicating intended sense so long as I follow this simple principle.

Not criticizing your route in this, Inter, just sharing one aspect of my own...

 

[random person]

Random,
I've gone through the comps of Paul and Peter and I don't think 2 Pet 3 is using 'stoichiea' in the same sense at all. Paul is talking about Judaism and other elementary religious beliefs which are weak and miserable in Gal 4 and Col 2 (a sort of neo-Judaism). I really don't think Peter drifted away from the concrete meaning of actual things that burn and atoms that compose our universe.

I have been reading in Greek for years and was a TA and took a year of it in a master's program where I was translating Josephus.

Interplanner,

Peter is obviously dealing with ethics not physics, the passing of the "elements" of the Old Covenant Israel.

Stoicheion makes an appearance in just seven times in the New Testament.

What was the religious center of "elements" of the Old Covenant -- the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem which was burned down by the Romans with a "fervent heat" and they also looted the Temple (as depicted on the Arch of Titus in Rome).

And no doubt, all the loot the Romans took from the Temple in Jerusalem helped finance Vespasian's Colosseum...

An original inscription on the Roman Colosseum: “Imp. T. Caes. Vespasianus Aug. Amphitheatrum Novum Ex Manubis Fieri Iussit.”

The translation is: “The Emperor Caesar Vespasian Augustus had this new amphitheater erected with the spoils of war."

So, somewhere along the line all the loot taken from the Temple in Jerusalem was no doubt eventually melted down and put to other uses. So, yes, the "elements" passed away with a fervent heat indeed.

 

[Interplanner]

Random,
there is nothing obvious about it. You're weakening the context if you do this. You're turning 'heavens' 'earth' 'water' 'world' in v5, 6 above into "theological symbols." That is very annoying if you want to have the respect of people who think they are reading the Bible literally. You're giving them permission to leap to 1948 or 2014 when they read Mt24:3. Don't rush to events in the DofJ everytime you open your NT. Been there, done that. There are many things God accomplished in the 1st century that have huge implications.

To put it another way, if v12 is DofJ what happened to v13?

 

[ShineyDays2]

What are the most difficult verses that dispensationalists can't refute?

 

[BABerean2]

What are the most difficult verses that dispensationalists can't refute?

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:18-24.

Christ said there is only one fold in John 10:16.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant, in Acts of the Apostles 2:36.


James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes", who were his "brethren" in the "faith", in James 1:1-3.


In Galatians 3:16 Paul says the promise was made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

What are the most difficult verses that dispensationalists can't refute?

Dispensationalists do not refute any scripture whatsoever, nor do they feel any need to do so. The only thing we refute is the false interpretations many apply to various scriptures.

Dispensagionalism is the only system of interpretation that simply believes everything the Bible says. All other systems of interpretation, and by this I mean Preterism (whether full or partial), Historicism, Idealism, and Covenant Theology, absolutely require all of their adherents to assume that most of the prophecies in the Bible simply do not mean what they so plainly, and often explicitly, say. Thus, "the land" or "the promised land" is assumed to mean heaven, "Israel" or "Judah" is assumed to mean "the church," etc.

 

[Biblewriter]

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:18-24.

Christ said there is only one fold in John 10:16.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant, in Acts of the Apostles 2:36.


James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes", who were his "brethren" in the "faith", in James 1:1-3.


In Galatians 3:16 Paul says the promise was made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds.

.

These scriptures only refute Dispenationalism in the imaginations of its opponents.

 

[jgr]

What are the most difficult verses that dispensationalists can't refute?

From the beginning of covenant history, God's promises were made to those of faith and obedience, irrespective of their ethnicity (Genesis 17:12).

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

 

[Biblewriter]

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

Dispensationalism ABSOLUTELY agrees with this.

The Old Testament scriptures you are neglecting are the ones that EXPLICITLY promise that all of Israel that has survived up to that time will ALL eventually be brought by faith into that New Covenant relationship with the God of their fathers.

 

[BABerean2]

The Old Testament scriptures you are neglecting are the ones that EXPLICITLY promise that all of Israel that has survived up to that time will ALL eventually be brought by faith into that New Covenant relationship with the God of their fathers.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

.

 

[jgr]

Dispensationalism ABSOLUTELY agrees with this.

The Old Testament scriptures you are neglecting are the ones that EXPLICITLY promise that all of Israel that has survived up to that time will ALL eventually be brought by faith into that New Covenant relationship with the God of their fathers.

"All Israel" identified.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

All Israel:
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only one Israel shall be saved.

All Israel.

The faithful obedient elect beloved foreknown remnant of Romans 11.

 

[Biblewriter]

"All Israel" identified.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

All Israel:
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only one Israel shall be saved.

All Israel.

The faithful obedient elect beloved foreknown remnant of Romans 11.

This is a total wresting of what this scripture says. What God was saying here is that simply being a physical descendant of the ancient nation of Israel was not enough. It was also necessary to be a child of Abraham by faith.

This was plainly shown by the two exampled God gave to show what He meant. Neither of them was a case of someone who was not a physical descendant being counted as a descendant. Bith of them were cases of some, but not all, of Abaham's descendants being counted as his descendants.

 

[jgr]

This is a total wresting of what this scripture says. What God was saying here is that simply being a physical descendant of the ancient nation of Israel was not enough. It was also necessary to be a child of Abraham by faith.

This was plainly shown by the two exampled God gave to show what He meant. Neither of them was a case of someone who was not a physical descendant being counted as a descendant. Bith of them were cases of some, but not all, of Abaham's descendants being counted as his descendants.

That's what I said.

Only one Israel shall be saved.

The faithful obedient elect beloved foreknown remnant of Romans 11.

 

[Biblewriter]

That's what I said.

Only one Israel shall be saved.

The faithful obedient elect beloved foreknown remnant of Romans 11.

Which is clearly defined in many other explicitly stated prophecies as the natural descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

 

[jgr]

Which is clearly defined in many other explicitly stated prophecies as the natural descendants of the ancient nation of Israel.

Not by those prophecies and not by Paul, because the remnant also included those of Israel who were "...not of thy seed", i.e. not Abraham's descendants. (Genesis 17:12).

Eliminating physical DNA as a criterion.

And substituting spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

 

[Biblewriter]

Not by those prophecies and not by Paul, because the remnant also included those of Israel who were "...not of thy seed", i.e. not Abraham's descendants. (Genesis 17:12).

Eliminating physical DNA as a criterion.

And substituting spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

The fact that some others were included does not change a singly word of the very, very, many explicitly stated promises.

 

[BABerean2]

The fact that some others were included does not change a singly word of the very, very, many explicitly stated promises.

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

.