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Dispensationalism Refuted

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ebedmelech

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Oh, never mind, Ebed, you are just to set in your ways to see what I was asserting no matter how I write it...
How about you Danoh?
Must be "the Spirit leading" you, yeah, okay, continue in your Charismatic self-delusion. Was there once myself.
Once again, how about you? Are you not asserting the same thing from "YOUR" perspective?
"Let me see, now where did I put my car keys..."

"No, wait, that's not me talking to me - why - why - it's the Spirit!"

Yeah, okay, feel "in touch" through that, if you must.

Me, I'll just allow "that still small voice" to "still" not know "where I put my car keys" til I get up, get objective about things, and go and search them out from that.

Bet I've lost you now, haven't I, lol

I'm sure you must mean well, a little bit... but you are confused...
Danoh, what does all that amount to...except your own frustration? It's pretty common of you to resort to jest, out of your own frustration, that's your pattern.

The time will come when as Paul wrote "we will know, even as we are known".

Try and rest in that...:thumbsup:
 
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Biblewriter

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Sadly, sadly...my shelves were filled with Dispey books. I spent too much money and time learning Dispensationalism to take that comment seriously.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

If you really know what we teach, then you are lying about out doctrines.

I cannot imagine that you would come here to tell lies, so I am forced to conclude that you simply do not know what we actually teach.
 
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Danoh

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How about you Danoh?

Once again, how about you? Are you not asserting the same thing from "YOUR" perspective?

Danoh, what does all that amount to...except your own frustration? It's pretty common of you to resort to jest, out of your own frustration, that's your pattern.

The time will come when as Paul wrote "we will know, even as we are known".

Try and rest in that...:thumbsup:

Frustration would imply I actually take you and yours seriously; which I do not.

I mean you can't even see the "shall know as I am known" is no more referring to the Lord than any of the other day to day experiences he uses as examples there, in communicating what he is communicating.

And you can't see it as such because you are reading your guessing at and bias into the passage, rather than asking an objective question like "what style of communicating via language what he is attempting to is he applying towards said communication?"

You get that out of the way first. Only then do you dig deeper into his intended sense, that the Spirit lead you through the passage's words themselves as you approach them objectively - not the "leading" mumble jumble you conclude your erroneous take on the passage is the Spirit's leading.

You and yours all do that - you read your notions and book based notions into things no matter how often you ask to be shown the sense of any passage, you and yours very well know you will only read your notions into.

So, no, you and yours do not frustrate me in the least. If anything, I smile each time out. I mean, you and yours collective confusion; its humorous to me; its always "come on, these guys actually believe this, that, the other..."

Nothing against you, mind you... if you're not saved, none of this matters anyway. And only God knows that. That is, where you yourself might be confused as to salvation.

One chill pill coming up for ya - how's one in Lamb's Blood red grab ya :)

Its in the Medicine cabinet; next to Romans 5:8...
 
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ebedmelech

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Frustration would imply I actually take you and yours seriously; which I do not.
Is this supposed to matter to me?
I mean you can't even see the "shall know as I am known" is no more referring to the Lord than any of the other day to day experiences he uses as examples there, in communicating what he is communicating.

And you can't see it as such because you are reading your guessing at and bias into the passage, rather than asking an objective question like "what style of communicating via language what he is attempting to is he applying towards said communication?"

You get that out of the way first. Only then do you dig deeper into his intended sense, that the Spirit lead you through the passage's words themselves as you approach them objectively - not the "leading" mumble jumble you conclude your erroneous take on the passage is the Spirit's leading.

You and yours all do that - you read your notions and book based notions into things no matter how often you ask to be shown the sense of any passage, you and yours very well know you will only read your notions into.

So, no, you and yours do not frustrate me in the least. If anything, I smile each time out. I mean, you and yours collective confusion; its humorous to me; its always "come on, these guys actually believe this, that, the other..."

Nothing against you, mind you... if you're not saved, none of this matters anyway. And only God knows that. That is, where you yourself might be confused as to salvation.

One chill pill coming up for ya - how's one in Lamb's Blood red grab ya :)

Its in the Medicine cabinet; next to Romans 5:8...
It's you Danoh, thinking I was referring "to the day of the Lord" but where did I even imply that?

I said "The time will come when as Paul wrote "we will know, even as we are known".

You jumped to your own conclusion Danoh. You attempt to imply what I understand of the passage when I never said.

You've gone on a tangent...and that's typical. I truly hope you feel better. :thumbsup:
 
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JM

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If you really know what we teach, then you are lying about out doctrines.

I cannot imagine that you would come here to tell lies, so I am forced to conclude that you simply do not know what we actually teach.

Do you even realize I posted the same comment to you on Amil last week?

^_^


Dispensationalism is fraught with problems. As I’m sure you know Dispensationalism is a chameleon of sorts ranging from “Acts 2, 9, 14, 28, Progressive, Larkinism, Darbyite, Scofield, MacArthur’s Leaky Dispenssationalism, etc.” There exists a strong antinomian strain to boot. It lacks confessional or creedal expression so engaging a Dispey about Dispensationalism really depends on the Dispensationalist and not the system because it's never the same. It changes from person to person and generation to generation. It is not anchored in church history outside of the early 1820’s. It also suffers from a lack of scholarship supporting it markedly seen on this forum.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 
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BABerean2

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Do you even realize I posted the same comment to you on Amil last week?

^_^


Dispensationalism is fraught with problems. As I’m sure you know Dispensationalism is a chameleon of sorts ranging from “Acts 2, 9, 14, 28, Progressive, Larkinism, Darbyite, Scofield, MacArthur’s Leaky Dispenssationalism, etc.” There exists a strong antinomian strain to boot. It lacks confessional or creedal expression so engaging a Dispey about Dispensationalism really depends on the Dispensationalist and not the system because it's never the same. It changes from person to person and generation to generation. It is not anchored in church history outside of the early 1820’s. It also suffers from a lack of scholarship supporting it markedly seen on this forum.

Yours in the Lord,

jm


Modern Dispensationalism began with a book written by a Jesuit priest and Edward Irving's commentary and teaching on the book. Darby adopted it after Irving died in 1834. He divided scripture in an attempt to make the doctrine work.

It has mutated to make it fit into the evangelical church. When claims are made by Tommy Ice and others explaining how Darby came up with the pretrib doctrine in 1827, it is Darby's own paper of 1829 which speaks the truth and proves Ice wrong.


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

Darby, J. N., Reflections (1829), Prophetic No. 1
Reflections upon the Prophetic Inquiry and the views advanced in it

.
 
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Jerico Miles

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No, it's not neccessary. I just wanted to know where you stand with your eschatology. Didn't know if you're a preterist, a post-tribber or other.

If you're timing on the rapture is post-trib, I have no idea how anyone can argue dispensationalism because roughly 99% of end-time views between a pre-tribber and a "true" post-tribber are virtually identical. We all share the same ideas about a 7 year tribulation, we believe the Antichrist, mark of the beast, the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation are all future events as well as many many other similar end time views. Our only difference is the timing of the rapture.

All I'm saying is a true post-tribber cannot say dispensationalism is completely false. However, we do have a few lost pretenders that thinks the entire tribulation is 3.5 years, Christ returns in the middle of the tribulation and other wild & crazy ideas I've seen that don't fall inline with true post-trib beliefs claiming to be a post-tribber. They have far more differences compared to other post-tribbers and their only agreement is the timing of the rapture.

That's why I asked. I just wanted to know your position on the end times.
 
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BABerean2

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No, it's not neccessary. I just wanted to know where you stand with your eschatology. Didn't know if you're a preterist, a post-tribber or other.

If you're timing on the rapture is post-trib, I have no idea how anyone can argue dispensationalism because roughly 99% of end-time views between a pre-tribber and a "true" post-tribber are virtually identical. We all share the same ideas about a 7 year tribulation, we believe the Antichrist, mark of the beast, the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation are all future events as well as many many other similar end time views. Our only difference is the timing of the rapture.

All I'm saying is a true post-tribber cannot say dispensationalism is completely false. However, we do have a few lost pretenders that thinks the entire tribulation is 3.5 years, Christ returns in the middle of the tribulation and other wild & crazy ideas I've seen that don't fall inline with true post-trib beliefs claiming to be a post-tribber. They have far more differences compared to other post-tribbers and their only agreement is the timing of the rapture.

That's why I asked. I just wanted to know your position on the end times.

It is amazing how some cast derogatory stones up in the air hoping they will come down and hit our Brother or Sister who is of a different opinion.

You are correct about the 7 year tribulation being the predominant view today.

However, if you go back to the days before Darby came to America, you would find something different, based on the older commentaries.

Pastor Brian O'Connell has an excellent article on the older viewpoint. Apparently, I am not the only "lost" "pretender".

Check his comments in the link below.


7 year Tribulation?
 
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Jerico Miles

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Check his comments in the link below.


7 year Tribulation?

You might want to use a more credible source. This is what the guy in your link wrote.

7 weeks 49 years for the Restoration of Jerusalem
62 weeks 434 years from that date to the announcement of the Messiah by John the Baptist
1 week 7 years for the ministry of John and of Christ to the crucifixion
70 weeks 490 years

The Messiah is “cut off” and then it talks about a “prince that shall come and destroy the city…” The scholars all have their formulas for exacting the date of the coming of Jesus Christ through this scripture, but it is certain, that these events were fulfilled with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago!



He said the 69th week ended from the time of John's ministry which began in 29AD. And the 70th week continued from that time till Christ's death which occured at 33AD. That's only 4 years apart, not 7.

Baptism of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Luke 3:1
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,


He also claimed all future events of Daniel 9:27 happened during those years during Christ's first advent, the abomination of desolation, the confirmation of the covenant, and the breaking of that covenant in the middle of the week.

None of those events happened before Christ's crucifixion. Also look at Dan 9:24, none of these prophecies have been fulfilled yet. One example, has sin been eliminated yet?

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
 
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BABerean2

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You might want to use a more credible source. This is what the guy in your link wrote.

7 weeks 49 years for the Restoration of Jerusalem
62 weeks 434 years from that date to the announcement of the Messiah by John the Baptist
1 week 7 years for the ministry of John and of Christ to the crucifixion
70 weeks 490 years

The Messiah is “cut off” and then it talks about a “prince that shall come and destroy the city…” The scholars all have their formulas for exacting the date of the coming of Jesus Christ through this scripture, but it is certain, that these events were fulfilled with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago!



He said the 69th week ended from the time of John's ministry which began in 29AD. And the 70th week continued from that time till Christ's death which occured at 33AD. That's only 4 years apart, not 7.

Baptism of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Luke 3:1
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,


He also claimed all future events of Daniel 9:27 happened during those years during Christ's first advent, the abomination of desolation, the confirmation of the covenant, and the breaking of that covenant in the middle of the week.

None of those events happened before Christ's crucifixion. Also look at Dan 9:24, none of these prophecies have been fulfilled yet. One example, has sin been eliminated yet?

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Daniel 9:24 is a summary of the whole 70 weeks prophecy. It has been fulfilled to the letter, as confirmed by the older commentators like Matthew Henry.

It starts out by stating that there would be 490 years of time within the prophecy. It did not say 2,490 years.

The word "Messiah", means anointed one.

You may want to be careful when trashing another poster's source and then using Wikipedia as one of your sources.

Anyone can edit a Wikipedia article. If you want to see if it is biased, look at who wrote it.



Daniel 9:27 speaks of confirming a covenant, not breaking one as Dispensationalists claim.

Normally the word "he" is proceeded with an antecedent which explains who the "he" is. However, this is not the case if using the antichrist in Dan. 9:27. The antecedents included were Christ, Titus, and the Romans.

How can the antichrist pop out of thin air and be placed in a verse? It violates all of the normal rules of interpretation. However, that is not normally a problem for the followers of John Darby.



Who confirmed the covenant?


Who Confirmed The Covenant? | Christian Media Research
 
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Interplanner

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BAB,
I don't have the source, but there is an interesting note about "confirm" that has led to the belief that the passage may also reveal what AC is like (or the leader of the rebellion that desolates) in that he negatively mirrors Christ. Here is the note: that this Heb. term can also mean "to make harsh." So on one hand you have the new covenant inaugurated. The negative mirror image is what the zealot leader did in the DofJ: to make the terms of the existing/old covenant unbearable. This theme is picked up by Jesus referring to 'pray that you don't have to travel on a sabbath...' and other things. The zealots were harsh about such laws. Think: Taliban-like.
 
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Jerico Miles

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Daniel 9:24 is a summary of the whole 70 weeks prophecy. It has been fulfilled to the letter, as confirmed by the older commentators like Matthew Henry.

It starts out by stating that there would be 490 years of time within the prophecy. It did not say 2,490 years.

The word "Messiah", means anointed one.

You may want to be careful when trashing another poster's source and then using Wikipedia as one of your sources.

Anyone can edit a Wikipedia article. If you want to see if it is biased, look at who wrote it.


Daniel 9:27 speaks of confirming a covenant, not breaking one as Dispensationalists claim.

Normally the word "he" is proceeded with an antecedent which explains who the "he" is. However, this is not the case if using the antichrist in Dan. 9:27. The antecedents included were Christ, Titus, and the Romans.

How can the antichrist pop out of thin air and be placed in a verse? It violates all of the normal rules of interpretation. However, that is not normally a problem for the followers of John Darby.

Who confirmed the covenant?


Who Confirmed The Covenant? | Christian Media Research

You're really going off-base on your end time view. Now what are you telling us, there's no Antichrist either? Plus you're also thinking a wrong covenant.

The covenant in Dan 9:27 is a peace treaty between men, not a spiritual covenant between God and man that you're thinking. He does break their agreement and the covenant is for one week, which is 7 years, not 3.5 years.

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:31
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 11:36
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 12:7
and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


There's no such thing as 2490 days under dispensationalist teaching. You managed to combine the years between Israel 490 with the church 2000 to form your argument for a literal 2490 years. Dispensationalism doesn't believe Israel and the Church are one in the same. If anyone on this forum who teaches a 2490 years, that would be those arguing against dispensationlist claiming the Church and Israel as the same entity.

And you're over reacting too. That wasn't trashing another person's opinion. The guy's argument on his link is just wrong, particularly when so many prophecies have not been fulfilled in the book of Daniel, particularly all of Daniel 9:24, 12:1, 12:2, 12:7 and can not be till the 70th week commences.

Daniel 12:1
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
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BABerean2

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You're really going off-base on your end time view. Now what are you telling us, there's no Antichrist either? Plus you're also thinking a wrong covenant.

The covenant in Dan 9:27 is a peace treaty between men, not a spiritual covenant between God and man that you're thinking. He does break their agreement and the covenant is for one week, which is 7 years, not 3.5 years.

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:31
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 11:36
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 12:7
and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


There's no such thing as 2490 days under dispensationalist teaching. You managed to combine the years between Israel 490 with the church 2000 to form your argument for a literal 2490 years. Dispensationalism doesn't believe Israel and the Church are one in the same. If anyone on this forum who teaches a 2490 years, that would be those arguing against dispensationlist claiming the Church and Israel as the same entity.

And you're over reacting too. That wasn't trashing another person's opinion. The guy's argument on his link is just wrong, particularly when so many prophecies have not been fulfilled in the book of Daniel, particularly all of Daniel 9:24, 12:1, 12:2, 12:7 and can not be till the 70th week commences.

Daniel 12:1
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You have done an excellent job of mixing together prophecies that I agree with 100% in a way that validates a false claim.

Daniel chapter 9 is about the Messiah. The antichrist is not even mentioned. The summary of Dan. 9:24 proves it.

Yes. There are other verses that contain the word abomination and desolation as well as the 3 1/2 year time frame. However, that does not mean they are referring to the same event.

The verses below give the preDarby understanding.



Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Christ's ministry was 3 1/2 years or half a week.
He was cut off at that point.


The veil in the temple was torn at the Cross signaling the end of temple sacrifice.

Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Christ told the Jewish leadership their house would be left desolate.

Mat_23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Christ also said the desolation would be near when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

Luk_21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


These verses do not require pulling the antichrist out of thin air and placing him in Dan. 9:27 without an antecedent.

The preDarby interpretation does not require adding a manmade gap to the 490 years spoken of by the angel Gabriel.

We are not to add to or take anything away from God's Word.

Daniel's 70th week followed the 69th week, based on the words of the angel of God.



 
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BABerean2

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You're really going off-base on your end time view. Now what are you telling us, there's no Antichrist either? Plus you're also thinking a wrong covenant.

The covenant in Dan 9:27 is a peace treaty between men, not a spiritual covenant between God and man that you're thinking. He does break their agreement and the covenant is for one week, which is 7 years, not 3.5 years.

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:31
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 11:36
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 12:7
and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


There's no such thing as 2490 days under dispensationalist teaching. You managed to combine the years between Israel 490 with the church 2000 to form your argument for a literal 2490 years. Dispensationalism doesn't believe Israel and the Church are one in the same. If anyone on this forum who teaches a 2490 years, that would be those arguing against dispensationlist claiming the Church and Israel as the same entity.

And you're over reacting too. That wasn't trashing another person's opinion. The guy's argument on his link is just wrong, particularly when so many prophecies have not been fulfilled in the book of Daniel, particularly all of Daniel 9:24, 12:1, 12:2, 12:7 and can not be till the 70th week commences.

Daniel 12:1
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You seem to be confused over the word Israel. The Apostle Paul should be able to correct your confusion in the verses below.
....................................................................................................

Two Israels: Israel of the Flesh and Israel of the Promise

Book of Galatians:

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(The promise was made to only one seed, Christ.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Being in-Christ is not dependant on one’s DNA. You are adopted through Christ.)

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
(Read Romans 9:8 to find out who the “children of God” are.)

Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

………………………………...................
Romans 9, 10, and 11


Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
(God does not judge by one’s DNA.)

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)
..........................................................

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.)

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(He took away the first covenant to establish the second.)

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(There is no need for renewed animal sacrifices. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He was God‘s one and only son.)

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not of this world.")

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Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(Faith in Christ replaces the Law.)

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(This is the only way of salvation, since the Cross. The blood of bulls and goats is now useless.)

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(God is no longer a respecter of persons based on DNA.)

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(Paul was not cast away, because of his faith in Christ.)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(During Paul's time there was a remnant of Jacob's descendants, who believed in Christ.)

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
(Salvation has always been by faith. No one but Christ has ever kept the Law. Nobody in the Old Testament was saved by keeping the Law. They were saved by Faith.)

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(Those broken off, has to be a reference to the unbelieving Jews.)

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(They can only be grafted back in, through faith in Christ.)

Rom 11:26 And “so” all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
("so" is an adverb of manner indicated by the Greek. It is not an adverb of time.)

G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

This could also be written, “And in this manner all Israel shall be saved…” which refers back to verse 23. They can be grafted back in through Faith in Christ. Many people say this means all of the Jews will be saved. However, multiple verses in Romans 9, 10 and 11 say the opposite. This has been clearly demonstrated by the words of the Apostle Paul. One verse cannot change all of the other verses.

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Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph_2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(God is no longer a respecter of persons. Christ has broken down the wall of separation between all peoples.)

The descendants of Jacob can only be grafted back into faithful Israel by faith in Christ. This is the "so", manner of their salvation.

The Church is not a parenthesis in God's plan. The Church is the Plan.

If we truly love the Jewish people we must tell them the truth.

The Dispensational view of Israel and the Church requires one to ignore or change the plain meaning of these verses from the Apostle Paul, written in God's Word.
 
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Danoh

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Its funny, the gap these individuals assert is manmade, post-Darby, or what ever other notion these one sided stone throwers assert, is a characteristic of other OT prophecies as well.

Of course, a surface "knowledge" of Scripture [more "books about" than Bible] is going to miss them.

Not surprisingly, failure to heed said gaps was also just as often a main feature of many in Israel's disbelief, the same as the gainsaying and revisionism frequent on this forum...
 
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