Dispensationalism Refuted

[Danoh]

The Church which is His Body is not a parenthesis; a Gap between Daniel's 69th and the 70th Week was the Gap. Such gaps are a feature common throughout Israel's history.

Acts 15's "after this" is in light of Romans 11's "this mystery."

And said mystery there is not The Mystery preached by Paul. Rather, it is a feature of said Mystery - that during this parenthetical gap common to His dealings with Israel, God is visiting the Gentiles directly, rather, than, as has been prophesied: through Israel.

And He began to reveal His having planned to do this during this particular gap within the many within Israel's history, He began to both carry it out as well as to reveal it, Mid-Acts in a New Apostle - of the Gentiles!

But, its not like this is going to fit the perspective of those with a surface knowledge of Scripture, for their failure to run more and more passages until just about every word of a passage is made clear by other passages.

Surface knowledge is where you assume you know what any word or passage means and as a result, fail to study out its "every word," Matt. 4:4, exhaustively, via "every word," that is; via other passages.

Revelation 7 is a good example - run just about every word of its chapter through other passages using its words, phrases, and you do NOT end up at notions some take as "spiritual."

Read the chapter at its surface, add in your books about, and habit of taking your own interpretation for another's, however, and yeah, you do end up at some notion other than actual, literal, physical sons of Jacob in Isaac.

And that right there is just one example of the many others some on here end up at, given their surface knowledge of Scripture, taken by them as knowing Scripture.

 

[Interplanner]

I have to challenge you on most lines, this time starting with the first. I can't think of an identified time span that is then messed with and gapped. I can think of examples contra.

1, the 400 years until the Amorite evil was maxed. Gen 17 or so. No gap.

2, the land's sabbath identified at the end of Chronicles, and repeated in Jeremiah. 70 years of rest. No gap.

Once again, on such simple matters, it is extremely difficult to trust your statements about the Gospel, Israel, the Bible, the ages, Daniel, the church, gaps, etc.

 

[Interplanner]

And then there's Danoh on Acts 15. "After this" is not future to us but to the original readers. The apostles were declaring that the raising of David's fallen tent was the Gentiles coming into faith in the Gospel.

They are not scatterbrains who go flitting off to a dispensational smorgasbord of future options whenever they handle the OT. They were solidifying what Christ said would happen in that generation.

 

[random person]

The Church which is His Body is not a parenthesis; a Gap between Daniel's 69th and the 70th Week was the Gap. Such gaps are a feature common throughout Israel's history.

Acts 15's "after this" is in light of Romans 11's "this mystery."

And said mystery there is not The Mystery preached by Paul. Rather, it is a feature of said Mystery - that during this parenthetical gap common to His dealings with Israel, God is visiting the Gentiles directly, rather, than, as has been prophesied: through Israel.

And He began to reveal His having planned to do this during this particular gap within the many within Israel's history, He began to both carry it out as well as to reveal it, Mid-Acts in a New Apostle - of the Gentiles!

But, its not like this is going to fit the perspective of those with a surface knowledge of Scripture, for their failure to run more and more passages until just about every word of a passage is made clear by other passages.

Surface knowledge is where you assume you know what any word or passage means and as a result, fail to study out its "every word," Matt. 4:4, exhaustively, via "every word," that is; via other passages.

Revelation 7 is a good example - run just about every word of its chapter through other passages using its words, phrases, and you do NOT end up at notions some take as "spiritual."

Read the chapter at its surface, add in your books about, and habit of taking your own interpretation for another's, however, and yeah, you do end up at some notion other than actual, literal, physical sons of Jacob in Isaac.

And that right there is just one example of the many others some on here end up at, given their surface knowledge of Scripture, taken by them as knowing Scripture.

The End of the Age.

The Last Days.

The Final Times.

These are biblical terminology for the end of the Jewish age, the end of the Mosaic economy, the end of the Old Covenant, the end of the Temple cultus in Jerusalem, the end of the temple sacrifices, the end of the Aaronic priesthood, etc.

Jesus brought this all to head in with His cloud judgement in 70 A.D. when the stars fell from heaven, the sun and moon did not give its light.

But that judgment actually began when Jesus was crucified and died upon the cross, on that day, day turned into night and the earth shook and the veil was torn in two. And the judgment itself was fulfilled a generation later as Jesus predicted it would.

The Jewish age is never going to be resurrected ever again like you dispys propose. The church age (or Messianic age) has no end (Ephesians 3:20-21). It was destroyed to make way for a New Heavens and New Earth. It was shaken in order to bring on the dawn of a new kingdom that can't be shaken.

You dispensationalists are gravely mistaken and misguided.

 

[Danoh]

I have to challenge you on most lines, this time starting with the first. I can't think of an identified time span that is then messed with and gapped. I can think of examples contra.

1, the 400 years until the Amorite evil was maxed. Gen 17 or so. No gap.

2, the land's sabbath identified at the end of Chronicles, and repeated in Jeremiah. 70 years of rest. No gap.

Once again, on such simple matters, it is extremely difficult to trust your statements about the Gospel, Israel, the Bible, the ages, Daniel, the church, gaps, etc.

An example of the types of gaps I am referring to is found in the second half of Matt. 10; where He speaks of a time after His resurrection; their Matt. 28 commission, and yet He speaks of that within the context of their Matt. 10, not their Matt. 28 commission.

Of course, I understand that this is because their Matt. 28 commission is their Matt. 10 commission in greater detail, but that is both another topic, as well as one you will disagree with.

But my point is that such gaps in time within what appears one time frame, are common within Scripture.

 

[Interplanner]

They are not common. That is hardly an example. I'd hate to see your checkbook at the rate these gaps are going!

I thought you would have 10 OT examples since Dan 9 is from that genre.

The 12 and the 70 went out and returned. That is a different mission than the apostles after the resurrection where they knew it was going to include outreach to the nations. The 70 were likely created from contact by the 12 and were the last call to Israel in some ways.

There is need for some basic housekeeping.

 

[BABerean2]

During 1812 a book titled, “The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty” was published in Spanish under the pseudonym of Ben Ezra a converted Jew. The actual author was Manuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest. During the 1820’s Edward Irving, a Scottish minister, gained access to the book and came to value Lacunza’s concepts within the book. He then had Lacunza’s book translated into English. The English version was published in 1827 and included Irving’s Preliminary Discourse as his commentary of the book. Irving was teaching doctrine based on the book in 1826 at a conference in Albury.

Irving taught a number of concepts from Lacunza’s book at the Albury prophecy conference. He stated that some of the promises to the Jewish people had not yet been fulfilled. (Lacunza p. 336, 338) Lacunza had added the antichrist and a rebuilt temple to Daniel 9:27. (p.301) He stated at least 7 years would be needed for conversion of the Jews in the last days. (p. 316) He also stated the Jewish people would accept Christ as their messiah at his Second Coming. (p. 349) Irving used the term dispensation 13 times on page 63 of his Preliminary Discourse which accompanied Lacunza’s book. The term is only used 4 times in the King James version of the Bible.
Lacunza’s book “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“ is available at…
PDF Files

According to early members of the Plymouth Brethren, during 1830 a teenage girl named Margaret Macdonald reported a “vision” of a pretribulation gathering of believers. Margaret had been bedridden for some time. She wrote a letter to Irving reporting the details of her vision. The text of her “vision” is available from various sources. The Irvingites published the concept of a pretribulation gathering within the September 1830 edition of their publication known as, “The Morning Watch”. Verification is available at… http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Edward Irving incorporated this pretrib rapture into his earlier teachings from Lacunza’s book. Many today consider John Nelson Darby to be the “Father” of Dispensationalism, however it can be shown many of the key concepts were first taught by Edward Irving at the Albury conference. This is found in the text of Irving’s Preliminary Discourse which was printed as a part of the English edition of Lacunza‘s book in 1827.

During the late 1820’s John Darby had become ordained as a minister within the Anglican Church. Darby became disillusioned with the Anglican Church within a few years. According to Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, Darby attended at least one of the Albury conferences. Edward Irving died in 1834. At some point Darby adopted Irving’s teaching and later became it’s greatest promoter. He had become a part of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, although later friction within the group caused division into smaller groups. Darby brought Dispensationalism to the United States around the time of the American Civil War.

Dispensationalism teaches a distinct separation between Israel and the Church, as well as the unfulfilled promises to the Jews and the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Darby believed that both Old Testament and New Testament saints would be raptured together, however later Dispensationalists changed this. Most Dispensationalists now teach that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at Christ’s Second Coming.

At some point Dispensationalists made an additional change to the interpretation of the 9th Chapter of Daniel. They believe the 490 years of the 70 weeks has not yet been completed. A gap (sometimes called a parenthesis or The Church Age) was placed between the 69th and 70th week of the 490 year prophecy. Dispensationalists believe God will deal again with Israel during the future 70th week ( 7 years), after the pretrib rapture of the Church.

Some Dispensationalists claim there are two separate kingdoms. They believe Israel's kingdom will be on earth and the Church will be in another kingdom in heaven.

Dispensationalists state they use a more literal interpretation of scripture and insist that others spiritualize scripture more than is intended. They have also adopted the principle that Christians have always expected the any-moment return of Christ. This concept is known as “Imminence”.

One of the biggest changes in doctrine proposed by Dispensationalists is the idea that Jews and others who are present after the pretrib rapture of the Church will be given another chance at salvation, either during the 7 year tribulation period, or when Christ appears at his Second Coming. Most Christians before had only accepted the possibility of salvation on an individual basis, however Dispensationalists see the possibility of “National Salvation” for the Jewish people. They take this idea from Romans 11:26 “And so all Israel shall be saved…” This is to occur at some point in the future after the pretrib rapture of the Church.

A pastor named C.I. Scofield incorporated Darby’s Dispensational teachings into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible which was published and sold on a massive scale. When people found these notes written in their Bible, many accepted the newer doctrine. Scofield also proposed a plan which divided the history of the Bible into 7 time periods or “dispensations” commonly referred to as “economies” by Dispensationalists.

Dallas Theological Seminary was established in 1924, and taught the new doctrine to future pastors. Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

During the last half of the 20th century authors such as Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye sold millions of copies of books and movies, based on the teachings of Dispensational Theology. The most popular were LaHaye’s “The Left Behind” series. Today many of these line the shelves of Christian homes and churches.

At present, many conservative church bodies throughout the U.S. have adopted some or most of the basic teachings of Dispensational Theology.

Very few Christians today know it all started with a book written by a Jesuit Priest and Edward Irving’s translation and commentary of the book or that the pretribulation rapture doctrine was taught by Edward Irving during 1830, after a teenage girl claimed to have had a “vision“ of a pretrib rapture.



PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

 

[Danoh]

Not that it is exactly my perspective, but nice summary, BAB2, thanks.

Still, I believe the emphasis on persons as Dispensationalism's origin is an error.

The question for me is whether or not it is Biblical, but how the Bible is approached when attempting to examine the validity of Dispensationslism.

Where all disagree is in said approach, regardless of whether one is aware of what approach one is applying.

I sincerely believe it boils down to objectivity over the subjectivity so many take to be their objectivity.

Until we come to agreement on the actual difference between those two, attributing Dispensationalism to whomever will only continue to emphasize looking in the wrong place for the answer.

 

[Interplanner]

can you give an example of subjectivity?

 

[Danoh]

Subjectivity in the sense of taking what one is reading into a thing as being its intended sense. Not asking oneself, "okay, how do I know that is what it is actually talking about? What else might I want to consider, and what else, and what else...?"

Any objective science has that feature throughout; so should the "science" of Hermeneutics.

For me, the hunt is ever for objective principles, as well as for their rules.

As in grammar school math, where you are taught, "okay, now subtract your result from one of those two; see if it adds up to the original amount." The principle there is the need for truly non-subjective objectivity, over one's only having assumed one was being objective, as in the parable of the talents.

 

[JM]

Well folks, that went well. Dispensationalism has been refuted over and over again. I just want to thank everyone that joined in the discussion. It is good to see we can finally say good riddance to Dispensational theology.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Danoh]

Personally, I don't see objectivity in it's truest sense in posts like, say, BAB2's Darby posts, etc.

I just don't agree that the answer is either in Darby or in his opponants, or in any other view and or against those.

I just don't. I simply refuse to go back to such things for other than curiosity as I simply like wrestling eith Scripture itself as to its answers. I just do.

This, of course, forces an attempt at a means of an objectivity somehow. You don't have that when you turn to an outside source. I turn to them, regardless of camp, but not often. And when I do, I then lay it aside and start anew in Scripture, attempting to distill its principles.

Took a while to get the books learned reasoning out of the mentality of my soul, that more math like principles might reign, but I got there - with the help of Hebrews 11:6 and Acts 17:11, 12a prayerfully applied objectively

 

[Danoh]

Well folks, that went well. Dispensationalism has been refuted over and over again. I just want to thank everyone that joined in the discussion. It is good to see we can finally say good riddance to Dispensational theology.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

JM, I'm curious; why the Dempsey images?

 

[JM]

I like boxing. Have boxed. Box with son. My family runs a boxing club and has for 40 years. Grew up doing it along with shotokan karate, judo, jujitsu and wrestling. I posted some judo vids in the Puritan Pub.

Have a look.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7767000-24/#post66503610

 

[random person]

Well folks, that went well. Dispensationalism has been refuted over and over again. I just want to thank everyone that joined in the discussion. It is good to see we can finally say good riddance to Dispensational theology.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Unfortunately, many still believe in this false doctrine.

The end of the Jewish age occurred in A.D. 70 - permanently. This is the end which the disciples inquired of before the Olivet Discourse and this is the end that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse.

But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is his name.

And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Isaiah 51:15-16


But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


2 Peter 3:10-13


God is not going to ever restore the Mosaic economy, the Temple cultus, and the Jewish age.

It was forever dissolved and melted with fervent heat in A.D. 70.

 

[riverrat]

Unfortunately, many still believe in this false doctrine.

The end of the Jewish age occurred in A.D. 70 - permanently. This is the end which the disciples inquired of before the Olivet Discourse and this is the end that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse.

But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is his name.

And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Isaiah 51:15-16


But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


2 Peter 3:10-13


God is not going to ever restore the Mosaic economy, the Temple cultus, and the Jewish age.

It was forever dissolved and melted with fervent heat in A.D. 70.

Preterism continues to raise its ugly head!

 

[JM]

It's a good thing Dispensationalism is fading away (like the old covenant written about in Hebrews).

 

[BABerean2]

It's a good thing Dispensationalism is fading away (like the old covenant written about in Hebrews).

To some of our Brothers and Sisters, it is all they have ever heard.

It is extremely difficult for pastors to accept the fact that they have been teaching something that is not scriptural. One of my favorite pastors in my former church body made the following statement.

"Things might change after one of the elders dies."

Later I came to understand that he was speaking of himself. It was a perfect example of legalism. He was saying he would hold onto Darby's version until his last breath.

As we have seen on this thread, some are like this pastor. They will never be able to let go of the doctrine.

All that we can do is speak the truth, and be willing to have thick skin.

 

[random person]

Preterism continues to raise its ugly head!

Obviously 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Isaiah 65:1-17 are speaking of the same event but look at how much more descriptive 65:1-17 passage is:


I am sought of them that asked not for me;
I am found of them that sought me not:
I said, Behold me, behold me,
unto a nation that was not called by my name.

I have spread out my hands all the day
unto a rebellious people,
which walketh in a way that was not good,
after their own thoughts;

a people that provoketh me to anger
continually to my face;
that sacrificeth in gardens,
and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

which remain among the graves,
and lodge in the monuments,
which eat swine’s flesh,
and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;


which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me;
for I am holier than thou.
These are a smoke in my nose,
a fire that burneth all the day.

Behold, it is written before me:
I will not keep silence, but will recompense,
even recompense into their bosom,

your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord,
which have burned incense upon the mountains,
and blasphemed me upon the hills:
therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom. [SOUND FAMILIAR? SEE MATT. 23:29-36!]

Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster,
and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it:
so will I do for my servants’ sakes,
that I may not destroy them all. [SOUND FAMILIAR? SEE MATT. 24:22!]

And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob,
and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains:
and mine elect shall inherit it,
and my servants shall dwell there.

And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks,
and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in,
for my people that have sought me.

But ye are they that forsake the Lord,
that forget my holy mountain,
that prepare a table for that troop,
and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called, ye did not answer;
when I spake, ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Therefore thus saith the Lord God,
Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry:
behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty:
behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord God shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:

that he who blesseth himself in the earth
shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth
shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.


Do you see the context of this passage in Isaiah 65, there will be a judgment and the creation of a new people of God simultaneously.

Now before you scoff, here is where old Heaven and old Earth is defined in Isaiah 51:15-16:

But I am the Lord thy God,
that divided the sea, whose waves roared:
the Lord of hosts is his name.

And I have put my words in thy mouth,
and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand,
that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth,
and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Concerning 2 Peter 3:12, "elements" is defined here:

Galatians 4:3,9

Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

 

[Danoh]

Random, the elements Peter is talking about are not the same ones Paul is talking about in Galatians. Peter is talking about the planet and the heavens, Paul is talking about the ways of the world, or traditions. Study out the word "ordinances," as it also has this dual meaning.

You constantly do that - quote passages you obviously conclude prove your view.