Dispensationalism Refuted

[jgr]

The fact that some others were included does not change a singly word of the very, very, many explicitly stated promises.

Unquestionably true.

Who said it did?

 

[Biblewriter]

Unquestionably true.

Who said it did?

You have been claiming that there is no special promise to the children of Israel.

 

[jgr]

You have been claiming that there is no special promise to the children of Israel.

I've been claiming what Genesis 17:12 claims.

Is that what Genesis 17:12 claims?

 

[Biblewriter]

I've been claiming what Genesis 17:12 claims.

Is that what Genesis 17:12 claims?

Genesis 17:12 is about an entirely different subject, which has zero relationship to the promises made to the ancient nation of Israel, to the ancient sub-nations of Ephraim and Judah, tho each of the twelve tribes individually, to Jerusalem, to Judea, and to the land of Israel. All of these promises will be kept by he God who cannot lie.

 

[BABerean2]

Genesis 17:12 is about an entirely different subject, which has zero relationship to the promises made to the ancient nation of Israel, to the ancient sub-nations of Ephraim and Judah, tho each of the twelve tribes individually, to Jerusalem, to Judea, and to the land of Israel. All of these promises will be kept by he God who cannot lie.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
(Quoted from the promise of the New Covenant to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

.

 

[jgr]

Genesis 17:12 is about an entirely different subject, which has zero relationship to the promises made to the ancient nation of Israel, to the ancient sub-nations of Ephraim and Judah, tho each of the twelve tribes individually, to Jerusalem, to Judea, and to the land of Israel. All of these promises will be kept by he God who cannot lie.

Tell us what "entirely different subject" Genesis 17:12 is about.

"the ancient nation of Israel" included those who were "not of thy seed".
"the land of Israel" was inhabited by those who were "not of thy seed".

They were every bit as much the recipients of the promises as those who were "of thy seed".

That's because the physical seed is irrelevant.

That's because only the spiritual seed is relevant.

That's because God is not an apartheid.

That's the subject that Genesis 17:12 is about.

 

[Biblewriter]

Tell us what "entirely different subject" Genesis 17:12 is about.

"the ancient nation of Israel" included those who were "not of thy seed".
"the land of Israel" was inhabited by those who were "not of thy seed".

They were every bit as much the recipients of the promises as those who were "of thy seed".

That's because the physical seed is irrelevant.

That's because only the spiritual seed is relevant.

That's because God is not an apartheid.

That's the subject that Genesis 17:12 is about.

This passage simply does not say, or even imply, that these servants became members of the nation of Israel.

 

[jgr]

This passage simply does not say, or even imply, that these servants became members of the nation of Israel.

What nation do you think they became members of?

Did God mandate their circumcision just for entertainment, then evict them to parts unknown?


Genesis 17
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 34
24 And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all that went out of the gate of his city.

Exodus 12
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


Circumcision was applicable to every male, ethnic or nonethnic, foreign or domestic, slave or free, servant or son; without distinction; who was willing to submit to, and comply with, God's covenant.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The sine qua non of dispensationalism is that the church and Israel are not the same entity. Yet, Acts 15 conveys this to be false. The matter in Acts and the quote from Amos 9:12 concerns the mission to the gentiles who bear the name of the being who moved Amos to write; furthermore, the most relevant OT text concerning these issues is Isaiah 49:3.

And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.… And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isaiah 49:3, 6)​

There is little controversy that the Servant, Israel, in the texts pertains to Christ, which is why revised dispensationalist Michael J. Vlach acknowledges that Christ is appointed the title of Israel in Isaiah 49.

But what may be surprising to some is that many dispensationalists also accept Premise 2 that Jesus is identified with Israel. For instance, Craig Blaising states, “I agree with Strimple that the New Testament presents Christ as Israel.”17 This author, too, believes that Christ is identified with Israel and that Matthew 1 and 2 indicates a strong connection between the nation Israel and Jesus. Jesus is the corporate Head of Israel who represents Israel.31​

By acknowledging that Christ is appointed the title “Israel” Vlach actually affirms, the “name” of the elect gentiles in Amos 9:12 is Israel and they are graciously adopted sons and daughters, which refutes dispensationalism. Two other relevant scriptural texts that corroborate that Christ is the being that moved Amos to write are Revelation 19:10 and 1 Peter 1:10–11.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1 Peter 1:10–11)​

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Rev 19:10–11)​

The texts corroborate that it was Christ who moved the prophets to write, which is further supported in the opening of the Revelation.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. (Revelation 1:1–2)​

John’s apocalypse conveys that God reveals his foreknowledge to Christ, who reveals it to the prophets or to the angels, and then to man. Dispensationalist Tony Garland concurs in his commentary to Revelation 19:10, which cites 1 Peter 1:11 in support, that the being who moved the prophets was Christ.

Does this verse teach that the testimony from Jesus is the spirit of prophecy? Or that the testimony about Jesus is the spirit of prophecy? Both of these statements are certainly true. For it is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (John 14:18; Romans 8:9; 1Pe. 1:11) Who is the source of all prophecy (see below) and the primary focus of the revelation He provides concerns Jesus.… Peter indicates that it was “the Spirit of Christ who was in” the prophets that testified. Thus, the Spirit of Jesus was the empowering source of their testimony.32​

Garland’s concession that it was Christ who moved the prophets also refutes dispensationalism and rather substantiates that the “name” in Amos 9:12 is Israel, as Christ is appointed the title Israel in Isaiah 49:3, to raise “up the tribes of Jacob” and is given as a light to the gentiles, so that he may be his Father’s “salvation unto the end of the earth.”


31. Michael J. Vlach, Ph.D., “What Does Christ as ‘True Israel’ Mean for the Nation Israel?: A Critique of the Non-Dispensational Understanding,” The Master's Seminary Journal 23, no. 1 (Spring 2012), 43-54.

32. Tony Garland, “A Testimony of Jesus Christ: A Commentary on the Book of Revelation,” Bible Study Tools.com, s.v. revelation-19-10, http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-19/revelation-19-10.html

 

[Biblewriter]

What nation do you think they became members of?

Did God mandate their circumcision just for entertainment, then evict them to parts unknown?


Genesis 17
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 34
24 And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all that went out of the gate of his city.

Exodus 12
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


Circumcision was applicable to every male, ethnic or nonethnic, foreign or domestic, slave or free, servant or son; without distinction; who was willing to submit to, and comply with, God's covenant.

Try finding even one scripture that says, or even implies, that being circumcised made someone an Israelite.

 

[BABerean2]

Try finding even one scripture that says, or even implies, that being circumcised made someone an Israelite.

Act_7:8 Then He gave him the covenant of circumcision; and so Abraham begot Isaac and circumcised him on the eighth day; and Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot the twelve patriarchs.


Act_10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.


Act_11:2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him,


Rom_15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,


Gal_2:12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.


Tit_1:10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,

.

 

[jgr]

Try finding even one scripture that says, or even implies, that being circumcised made someone an Israelite.

What did it make him?

 

[parousia70]

Try finding even one scripture that says, or even implies, that being circumcised made someone an Israelite.

What does this Imply?
Exodus 12
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

 

[mkgal1]

You have been claiming that there is no special promise to the children of Israel.

Does Isaiah 56 look to you to be exclusive promises of His covenant (only received based on DNA or origin of birth)?

Isaiah 56 ~ Salvation for Foreigners​

This is what the LORD says:

“Maintain justice and do what is right,

for My salvation is coming soon,

and My righteousness will be revealed.

Blessed is the man who does this,

and the son of man who holds it fast,

who keeps the Sabbath without profaning it,

and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,

“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”

And let the eunuch not say,

“I am but a dry tree.”

For this is what the LORD says:

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,

who choose what pleases Me

and hold fast to My covenant—

I will give them, in My house and within My walls,

a memorial and a name

better than that of sons and daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name

that will not be cut off.

And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD

to minister to Him,

to love the name of the LORD,

and to be His servants—

all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it

and who hold fast to My covenant—

I will bring them to My holy mountain

and make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices

will be accepted on My altar,

for My house will be called a house of prayer

for all the nations.”

Thus declares the Lord GOD,

who gathers the dispersed of Israel:

“I will gather to them still others

besides those already gathered.”​

 

[jgr]

Does Isaiah 56 look to you to be exclusive promises of His covenant (only received based on DNA or origin of birth)?

Isaiah 56 ~ Salvation for Foreigners​

This is what the LORD says:

“Maintain justice and do what is right,

for My salvation is coming soon,

and My righteousness will be revealed.

Blessed is the man who does this,

and the son of man who holds it fast,

who keeps the Sabbath without profaning it,

and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,

“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”

And let the eunuch not say,

“I am but a dry tree.”

For this is what the LORD says:

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,

who choose what pleases Me

and hold fast to My covenant—

I will give them, in My house and within My walls,

a memorial and a name

better than that of sons and daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name

that will not be cut off.

And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD

to minister to Him,

to love the name of the LORD,

and to be His servants—

all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it

and who hold fast to My covenant—

I will bring them to My holy mountain

and make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices

will be accepted on My altar,

for My house will be called a house of prayer

for all the nations.”

Thus declares the Lord GOD,

who gathers the dispersed of Israel:

“I will gather to them still others

besides those already gathered.”​

Superb, mkgal1. One couldn't ask for a more compelling repudiation of dispensationalism's apartheid.

 

[Biblewriter]

Act_7:8 Then He gave him the covenant of circumcision; and so Abraham begot Isaac and circumcised him on the eighth day; and Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot the twelve patriarchs.


Act_10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.


Act_11:2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him,


Rom_15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,


Gal_2:12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.


Tit_1:10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,

.

And not even one of these says anything whatsoever about anyone becoming an Israelite by being circumcised.

 

[Biblewriter]

Does Isaiah 56 look to you to be exclusive promises of His covenant (only received based on DNA or origin of birth)?

Isaiah 56 ~ Salvation for Foreigners​

This is what the LORD says:

“Maintain justice and do what is right,

for My salvation is coming soon,

and My righteousness will be revealed.

Blessed is the man who does this,

and the son of man who holds it fast,

who keeps the Sabbath without profaning it,

and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,

“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”

And let the eunuch not say,

“I am but a dry tree.”

For this is what the LORD says:

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,

who choose what pleases Me

and hold fast to My covenant—

I will give them, in My house and within My walls,

a memorial and a name

better than that of sons and daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name

that will not be cut off.

And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD

to minister to Him,

to love the name of the LORD,

and to be His servants—

all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it

and who hold fast to My covenant—

I will bring them to My holy mountain

and make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices

will be accepted on My altar,

for My house will be called a house of prayer

for all the nations.”

Thus declares the Lord GOD,

who gathers the dispersed of Israel:

“I will gather to them still others

besides those already gathered.”​

The fact that additional promises were made to others does not detract one iota from the EXPLICITLY STATED promises made to some.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The Old Covenant isn't relevant today!

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. Hebrews 8:8-9

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Galatians 3:23-25

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16​

 

[Southernscotty]

I really am saddened to see all dispensational teaching to be considered false and/or placed into one basket.
If one says they don't believe in dispensations then they do not understand the word. It is used in the bible

It is merely a time period that God has dealt with a particular group, time or person.

One can say there is a A dispensation between OT and NT or find as many as 30 certain dispensations in the Word.
I see 7 distinct periods that I can dissect and it helps me understand the literal approach to the gospel.

It is a measuring tool that is used to correctly measure and study the Word of God which is ask of us in 2 Timothy 2:15.
It works well for me

 

[Jerryhuerta]

While dispensations are viable, dispensationalism is not!