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Dispensationalism Refuted

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JM, Oct 23, 2014.

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  1. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Where do you find biblical support for this idea of "explicitly stated promises made to SOME" - and what is the distinction between this exclusive group and other faithful believers/adherents of His covenant?
     
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  2. Southernscotty

    Southernscotty Well-Known Member Supporter Angels Team

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    No Jew nor gentile during the grace age, However the 144000 that appear during the tribulation are all sealed jews and the kingdom will be returned to them.
    Jesus is sitting Davids throne friend
     
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  3. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    That is Easy. One brother from my former church said in a sermon on the teaching of the sheep and goats, it did not include Christains as the christians had been raptured, nor Jews as Moses said the Jews were not to be reckoned as among the nations. (Numbers 23:9 ) As the sheep were not Christians or Jews,they were among the nations and were saved by offering food and shelter to the Brethren of the Lord, the Jews, he said, during the tribulation.
    • Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    • 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    • 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    • 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    • 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    • 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    • 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    • 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    • 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    • 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    • 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    • 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    • 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    • 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    • 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    He did offer to loan me a book containing that teaching when he had finished re-reading it, but died before he could. I asked his son if he could find it, but he couldn't.
     
  4. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    About those 144,000........

    Quoting Chilton's Days of Vengeance:
    The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of
    Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its
    multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; 7:9; Ps.
    50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4).

    St. John pictures for us the
    ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its
    perfection, symmetry, and completeness; the holy
    Army of God, mustered for battle according to her
    thousands (cf. 1 Chron. 4-7). The “thousand” was the
    basic military division in the camp of Israel (Num.
    10:2-4, 35-36; 31:1-5, 48-54; 2 Sam. 18:1; 1 Chron.
    12:20; 13:1; 15:25; 26:26; 27:1; 28:1; 29:6; 2 Chron.
    1:2; 17:14-19; Ps. 68:17).

    This is the significance of
    Micah’s famous prophecy of the Nativity: Even though
    Bethlehem is too small to be counted “among the
    thousands of Judah,” too insignificant to be considered
    seriously in the nation’s military strategy, yet “from you
    One will go forth for Me to be Ruler in Israel,” the King
    who will establish God’s justice and peace to the ends
    of the earth (Mic. 5:1-15).

    It is in terms of this Biblical
    imagery that St. John hears the names of the tribes
    shouted out: He is listening to the military roll-call of
    the Lord’s Hosts. In this case, each of the twelve tribes
    is able to field twelve full divisions, a numerically
    perfect army of 144,000 soldiers of the Lord.

    St. John’s vision of an Israelite army is thus, in Milton
    Terry’s words, “an apocalyptic picture of that ‘holy seed’
    of which Isaiah speaks in Isaiah 6:13 – that surviving
    remnant which was destined to remain like the stump
    of a fallen oak after cities had been laid waste and the
    whole land had become a desolation – that ‘remnant of
    Jacob,’ which was to be preserved from the ‘consumption
    determined in the midst of all the land’ (Isa. 10:21-
    23).

    It is the same ‘remnant according to the election
    of grace’ of which Paul speaks in Romans 9:27-28; 11:5.
    God will not destroy Jerusalem and make the once holy
    places desolate until He first chooses and seals a select
    number as the beginning of a new Israel. The first
    Christian Church was formed out of chosen servants of
    God from ‘the twelve tribes of the dispersion’ (James
    1:1) ~ Days of Vengeance
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Double post
     
  6. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Zechariah 10:7-9 is about this age, sir.

    And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.​

    You will note that the antecedent text, verse 6, states that God will have mercy and save Judah and the house of Joseph and bring them back to their land.

    And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.​

    Yet these prophecies were written after the return from the Babylonian captivity and prophecy of another diaspora, specifically for Ephraim, which is also the name in the OT for the ten northern tribes, as is Joseph, in contrast to Judah. Chapter 11 also prophecies of this diaspora, Judah being cast off, and came to fulfillment in 70 AD, as you know. In essence, God will hiss, or call Ephraim and gather them in Christ and then scatter them in the world to bring in the gentiles, which was not the plan for Judah. Judah was to be blinded in the age (Romans 11). This explains Matthew 21:43.

    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.​

    The kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the nation of Ephraim/Joseph, which is what Peter confirms in his epistle.

    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Both Peter, and Hosea, from whence Peter quotes, are referring to the descendants of the ten northern tribes that were dwelling in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia at that time, which was affirmed by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who wrote, “the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers." Zechariah 10:7-9 is the source for the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    If the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, how can "the grace age" come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ?

    See also Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.


    .
     
  8. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    The last dispy I heard preaching on that, two weeks running said that coming was only to the Jews, as Jesus was only speaking to the Jews. He was a Plymouth Brethren man. Now the Brethren teach that Jesus is coming twice, once for the saints and then with the saints. This teaching seems to teach another coming as it wasn't for, nor with the saints. Afterwards, I asked him where Christians were at that time. He said "In heaven, but you don't believe the scriptures." Then he turned on his heel and went off. I didn't get a chance to ask him my next question, which would have been "If Christ is on earth and the church is in heaven, how does pauls teaching that we will be forever with the Lord, fit in."
     
  9. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    The bible doesn't teach that is a translation to heaven. That is a false teaching. It says he is descending and we will meet him in the air. That is the return of the Lord and the only one.
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Church and the 144,000

    Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

    2 Corinthians 1:21-22
    Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

    Ephesians 1:13
    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:30
    Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


    The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
    Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

    While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

    Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

    The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

    Galatians 3:28
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Ephesians 2:14
    For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

    Colossians 3:11
    Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


    The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

    No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000
     
  11. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Can you give the reference for that quote from Josephus, Please?.
     
  12. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 11.133.
     
  13. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    I don't know where you got the 7 year tribulation idea from.
     
  14. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Begone pesky Devil! Supporter

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    That word used in Ephe 4:30 is used in only 1 verse in the Gospels, the 70ad event in Luke 21. Did the Jews get raptured into the air?

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

    Luk 21:28
    24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    28“Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption<629> draws near.”

    Revelation 11:2
    and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations
    and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months.
     
  16. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Just a couple of points. In the Morning watch magazine Edward Irving said he first preached on dispensationalism on Christmas day 1825. That was before Mary MacDonald's dream. The Irvingites believed the rapture would occur in the summer of 1833 and gathered together on the named day. (Robert Baxter, Irvingism in its rise and present state. 1836. Baxter was one of Irvings leading prophets till he realised the false teaching of the Irvignite, and accused himself of delusion and left the movement. A number of the Irving prophets confirmed the rapture teaching including Baxter.)
    [​IMG]
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Correct.

    The pretrib doctrine of the Irvingites developed around 1830 (September 1830 issue of The Morning Watch), which was after Irving started teaching the doctrine from Lacunza's book at the first Albury Conference.


    Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

    .
     
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'm wondering if there's an answer for this question.
     
  19. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Dispensations have been mentioned through Church History. Dispesationalism has not.
     
  20. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Dispensationalists insist that the biological descendants inherit the land and the church inherits heaven, the former being dispensationalism's explicitly stated promises to Israel.

    It does not surmount the scriptures that maintain gentiles will inherit the land also.

    For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. Isaiah 14:1

    So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 47:21-23

    So you see, the land is not explicitly stated as a promise strictly to the biological descendants. Furthermore, we are looking forward to inheriting a heavenly country on this earth, not in heaven.

    By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God....
    These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16​

    All the patriarchs died not receiving the promise of the heavenly country, which will be consummated when Christ returns and the gentiles have an inheritance through Abraham.

    And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:2-3

    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29
    As I affirmed in my prior post, Ephriam is the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard (Matthew 21:43), which are the gentiles-as they assimilate them!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
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