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Featured Discussion - Earth calamities and Rumors of war

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Bible2+, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not at all.

    Preterism accepts that every Scripture reference, outside of Matthew 24:21, to tribulation in the New Testament, was, is, and will continue to be applicable to every New Testament believer until Christ returns.

    No denial at all, especially not the denial of a pretrib rapture to which the majority of futurists, unlike yourself, subscribe.
     
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that it doesn't have to. For anything referred to as being "great" (megas: G3173) can mean that it's great in amount, like the "great joy" in Matthew 2:10 means a great amount of joy, and the "great light" in Matthew 4:16 means a great amount of light, and the "great faith" in Matthew 15:28 means a great amount of faith, and the "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 means a great amount of tribulation, and the "great sound" in Matthew 24:31 means a great amount of sound, and the "great astonishment" in Mark 5:42 means a great amount of astonishment, and the "great famine" in Luke 4:25 means a great amount of famine, and the "great distress" in Luke 21:23 means a great amount of distress, and the "great power" of Acts 4:33 means a great amount of power, and the "great fear" of Acts 5:11 means a great amount of fear; and so on, and so on, throughout the New Testament.

    But Matthew 24:22 shows that Matthew 24:21 means that the future Tribulation will be great in the number of deaths which will occur during it, so great that all flesh on the earth would die were it not for God limiting the time of the Tribulation.

    Note that "things that distress" would include the numbers who will die.

    Note that mass crucifixions were perpetrated by the Romans even before 70 AD. For example, in Rome, after its burning in 64 AD.

    And no doubt mass crucifixions occurred after 70 AD, during the Romans' horrible persecutions of Christians throughout the Roman empire.

    But nothing in Matthew 24, just as nothing in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, ever refers to mass crucifixions during the future Tribulation.

    For Christians will be beheaded instead (Revelation 20:4-6).
     
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Great" conveying the sense of "amount" is covered in section 1b of the Thayer definitions:

    b. of number and quantity, equivalent to numerous, large: ἀγέλη, Mark 5:11; abundant, πορισμός, 1 Timothy 6:6; μισθαποδοσία, Hebrews 10:35.

    Not one of your citations is found in section 1b, confirming that none of them relates to "great" in the sense of "amount".

    Tribulation via crucifixion encompasses both distress and death; Christ addresses distress in Matthew 24:21, and death in Matthew 24:22.

    Where did you read that? "No doubt" doesn't qualify.

    There is no historical substantiation of any other mass crucifixions on a scale remotely approaching those of 70 AD -- 500 per day --, when Romans would nail multiple victims to a single cross, and wood for crosses in the area was completely exhausted.

    There is no future Tribulation. If there were, beheading would not satisfy the requirements of "great tribulation"; those requirements would only be satisfied by mass crucifixions surpassing those of 70 AD, as the Scripture states:

    Matthew 24
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Messiah's prophecy of great tribulation was fulfilled to the letter in 70 AD.


    In complement, the defenders of the faith speak:

    The choice:

    Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

    160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:3,34): "But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: "See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . ." And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken." (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)

    Easy decision.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the citations in post #162 above do not have to be in section 1b in order for them to also be examples of how "megas" (G3173) can be used in the sense of the amount of something. For section 1b is not an exhaustive list, but is simply giving some examples.

    Also, you will have to show how each of the citations in post #162 does not refer to amount.

    Note that the unprecedented distress in Matthew 24:21 would include the amount of death in Matthew 24:22.

    Also, note that there is no reference to crucifixion in Matthew 24:21, just as there is no reference to crucifixion in the distress of Luke 21:25-26, for example. Crucifixion is not mentioned anywhere in the never-fulfilled Matthew 24, or Luke 21, or Revelation chapters 6 to 18. For Christians will be beheaded instead (Revelation 20:4-6).

    Also, note that the unprecedented amount of distress and death during the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:21-22) will involve not just Christians, but non-Christians as well, such as from the huge war in Revelation 6:4-8, which will kill one-fourth of the world, and then from the weird horse-like beings who will kill one-third of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19).

    How many Christians were crucified in Rome in 64 AD, and in later persecutions of the Church by the Romans, which persecution went on for centuries? Also, note that Christians who were crucified in Rome in 64 AD were also set on fire while they were still alive on their crosses. There is no more painful death than burning.

    Also, note that what happened to the Jews in 70 AD was later dwarfed by the horrible and unprecedented Holocaust.

    Note that there is. For the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 was never fulfilled. And Jesus Christ must return immediately after it (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Also, as an example of how the Tribulation has not been fulfilled yet, note that the future, second woe/sixth trumpet earthquake (Revelation 11:13-14, cf. Revelation 9:12-13) will destroy one-tenth of Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8,13) and will kill 7,000 people (Revelation 11:13), right after God's future, Two Witnesses are physically resuscitated and taken up to heaven (Revelation 11:11-13). There will be a subsequent earthquake after the seventh trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15,19). And then there will be yet another earthquake after the seventh vial of God's wrath is poured out (Revelation 16:17-20). Between the seventh trumpet and the seventh vial, the first six vials will occur in order (Revelation 16). Before all of these earthquakes, one will occur after the seventh seal is unsealed (Revelation 8:1,5) and before the first trumpet sounds (Revelation 8:7). There will also be another, even-earlier earthquake, after the sixth seal is unsealed (Revelation 6:12).

    Why not? Also, note that the great Tribulation will involve much more than just beheading. See Revelation chapters 6 to 18.

    Note that both verses are misquoted, and Matthew 24:3 is a misreference for Matthew 24:2.

    Also, regarding Matthew 24:2, note that it has not been fulfilled because the Wailing Wall still stands. See post #85 above.

    Regarding Matthew 24:34, note that it has not been fulfilled because, for example, Jesus Christ's Second Coming in Matthew 24:30-31 has not occurred yet.

    See post #87 above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Another defender of the faith speaks:

    The choice:

    Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

    160AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.--Of The Times Of Christ's Birth And Passion, And Of Jerusalem's Destruction. "Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that "both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin."(7) And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader,(8) must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen. ... "Therefore, when these times also were completed, and the Jews subdued, there afterwards ceased in that place "libations and sacrifices," which thenceforward have not been able to be in that place celebrated; for "the unction," too,(6) was "exterminated" in that place after the passion of Christ. For it had been predicted that the unction should be exterminated in that place; as in the Psalms it is prophesied, "They exterminated my hands and feet."(7) And the suffering of this "extermination" was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Caesar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April,(8) on the first day of unleavened bread, on which they slew the lamb at even, just as had been enjoined by Moses.(9) Accordingly, all the synagogue of Israel did slay Him, saying to Pilate, when he was desirous to dismiss Him, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children;"(10) and, "If thou dismiss him, thou art not a friend of Caesar;"(11) in order that all things might be fulfilled which had been written of Him.(12)" (Against the Jews, Ch.8) (On the Significance of A.D. 70)


    Easy decision.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that in that quote he doesn't ever say that Matthew 24 is fulfilled, or even refer to any part of it. Instead, the only prophecies he refers to are Daniel 9:26 and Psalms 22:16b.

    That is, when he says: "in the Psalms it is prophesied, 'They exterminated my hands and feet.'(7) And the suffering of this 'extermination' was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Caesar", he is referring to the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ foretold in Psalms 22:16b.

    Tertullian makes a reference to Acts 13:29 at the end of the quote, but that was something that was said by the apostle Paul before 70 AD. Also, Acts 13:29 was referring only to all that was written in the Old Testament regarding Jesus Christ's suffering and dying for our sins (e.g. Isaiah 53, Psalms 22). For the events referred to in Acts 13:29 occurred even before Jesus had resurrected on the third day after His death, which resurrection was also written of Him in the Old Testament (e.g. Acts 26:22-23, Psalms 16:10, Hosea 6:2). Also, note that Jesus did not fulfill, for example, Zechariah 14 at His first coming. But because it must be fulfilled, He will fulfill it at His future, Second Coming, along with all of the other Old Testament prophecies which He did not fulfill at His first coming (e.g. Micah 4:1-4, Isaiah 19:18-25).

    --

    Regarding Daniel 9:26, see the "Daniel 9:26" part of post #44 above.

    Preterism sometimes claims that Daniel 9:26 cannot be future because God did not put a "gap" in His Word.

    But note that even in preterism, there was a gap of decades between the first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a and the first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b. For first century AD Jerusalem was not destroyed until 70 AD, decades after the Crucifixion. Also, there will be a gap of seven years between the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a and the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b. For the present Jerusalem will not be destroyed until right before and at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21), about seven years after the future Antichrist "cuts" a seven-year peace treaty (Daniel 9:26a,27a) with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) who will be ruling Jerusalem at the start (and then during the first half) of the possibly seven-year, future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    -

    In the first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b,27b, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by Roman-empire soldiers from nations throughout the Roman empire (which included the territory of modern-day Lebanon). These soldiers were "the people" in Daniel 9:26, their "prince" being Titus. In the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, Jerusalem will be destroyed by soldiers from all of the nations of the earth, which will be under the future Antichrist's rule (Revelation 13:7b) when their armies gather against Jerusalem right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21).

    And just as "the city" in Daniel 9:26 is Jerusalem, so "the sanctuary" is the Jewish temple building in Jerusalem. In the first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, the second Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 AD by Roman-empire soldiers. In the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, a future, third Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4) will be destroyed along with the rest of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:2, Luke 19:44), when Jerusalem is pillaged by armies from all of the nations of the earth, right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming to save and restore Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2-21).

    --

    Also, note that nothing in 70 AD fulfilled Matthew 24, which refers to the same, future Tribulation and Second Coming of Jesus Christ as Revelation chapters 6 to 19.

    As an example of how this Tribulation remains unfulfilled, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus Christ will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his ten kings (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9; Revelation 17:12-13) right when the seventh trumpet sounds. It will not be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at His Second Coming and during the subsequent Millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

    Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will not occur immediately after the sounding of the future Tribulation's seventh trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this does not mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds is: "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the Tribulation's final stage, will come out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

    So the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the Tribulation, will not be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter will not sound until after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which will not occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the Church will be physically resurrected into immortality (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

    Before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, the Tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5), which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible, 75-day, vials-delay between Jesus Christ taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and His return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20), would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

    At Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, only the Church (of all times) will be physically resurrected and judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27). And then Jesus will marry the obedient part of the Church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and rewarding of the Church in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the seventh trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

    Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will not be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which will not occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected Church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), a time period commonly called the Millennium. Both of the resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people becoming Christians, which has been going on for thousands of years.
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The choice:

    Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

    325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:7) Caius had held the power not quite four years,[1] when he was succeeded by the emperor Claudius. Under him the world was visited with a famine,[2] which writers that are entire strangers to our religion have recorded in their histories.[3] And thus the prediction of Agabus recorded in the Acts of the Apostles,[4] according to which the whole world was to be visited by a famine, received its fulfillment. And Luke, in the Acts, after mentioning the famine in the time of Claudius, and stating that the brethren of Antioch, each according to his ability, sent to the brethren of Judea by the hands of Paul and Barnabas,[5] adds the following account. (Book II, Ch. VIII)


    Easy decision.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
  8. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
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  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that in the quote he doesn't say that Matthew 24 was fulfilled, nor does he refer to any part of Matthew 24. Instead, he says (like even Acts 11:28 itself does) that a first century AD famine fulfilled a prophecy made by Agabus in Acts 11:28.

    Also, note that just because the famine in Acts 11:28 occurred in the first century AD after Jesus Christ spoke Matthew 24:7 does not make that famine the fulfillment of the "famines" part of Matthew 24:7 any more than just because the worst famines in history occurred centuries later (such as the Great Chinese Famine and the Bengal Famine) does not make those famines the fulfillment of the "famines" part of Matthew 24:7.

    Unprecedented famines could occur after the unprecedented war in Revelation 6:4-8 which will begin the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    (See the "famines" part of post #4 above)

    --

    The Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 has never happened, because Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur immediately after it (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    As an example of how the Tribulation has never been fulfilled, note that a miraculous hail will occur three separate times during it: First at the first trumpet (Revelation 8:7), then years later at the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15,19), and then months later at the seventh vial (Revelation 16:21). Also, after the Tribulation and the subsequent Second Coming and Millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10), the divine defeat of which will include a hail (Ezekiel 38:22). God also sent hail as a judgment at different times in the Old Testament (Exodus 9:18, Joshua 10:11, Haggai 2:17).
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That brings to mind Daniel 7, in which the first three beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the ten horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent ten major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These ten nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The ten part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43 the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

    But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the ten as a singular "kingdom". The person who will bring this about could be the future Antichrist.

    The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the future Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the ten major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

    The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of three of the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, that is, a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

    This Baathist federation could be put together in our future by an Iraqi Baathist General (the future Antichrist's precursor) who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all ten of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like how when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

    That's right.

    And regarding the 42 months, 1,260 days, and "a time, and times, and half a time", they are all the same time period in the prophecies of Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 12:7. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the three days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days, and the three days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days. Similarly, the seventy years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5), and the 400 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Genesis 15:13 were literal years.

    The literal 1,260-day time period will be the time of the Antichrist's Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled, not even during a past time period of 1,260 years, as historicism mistakenly claims. But these details must be fulfilled (Revelation 1:1). So they will be fulfilled in our future, after the also-never-fulfilled details of Revelation chapters 6 to 10 are fulfilled in our future.

    Note that the Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, Tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of one-fourth of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace, and antitypically fulfill the "vile person" of Daniel 11:21-45.

    (See posts #4 and #7 above)

    Note that Daniel 12:7b refers to the future Antichrist's utter defeat of the Church (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

    (See also the "Daniel 12:7b" part of post #139 above)

    Actually, they are. For Jesus Christ will not return until after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), after its seventh-and-last vial has destroyed "Babylon" (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:4).

    (See also the "seventh vial" part of post #153 above)

    Also, regarding the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7), note that it will not be the entire future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the Tribulation, right before Jesus Christ returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, the Church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the Tribulation. For Christians will be in the Tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13). And there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The choice:

    Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

    325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On the Significance of A.D.70) "It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. (Book III, Ch. VII)


    Easy decision.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the death of 1,100,000 Jews is horrible. But it is still dwarfed by the even more horrible Holocaust which killed 6,000,000 Jews during World War II. So 70 AD in no way fulfilled the requirements of Matthew 24:21.

    Also, note that the Tribulation foretold in Matthew 24, as in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, cannot possibly have been fulfilled yet, because Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur immediately after it (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    For an example of how the Tribulation has not happened yet, note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the Church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

    Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

    Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the Church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the Church during that time who will not flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and will be persecuted in every nation, being imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, Genesis 37:9-10 is not (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1 the Church/Israel is not clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the Church/Israel does not have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the Church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the Church/Israel does not have Jacob's twelve sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Eusebius leaves no doubt that he recognized the portion of Matthew 24 which he cited, to have been historically fulfilled.

    Next:

    The choice:

    Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

    375AD 'John' Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) For He brought in also a prophecy, to confirm their desolation, saying, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand."(12) He referred them to Daniel. And by "abomination" He meaneth the statue of him who then took the city, which he who desolated the city and the temple placed within the temple, wherefore Christ calleth it, "of desolation." Moreover, in order that they might learn that these things will be while some of them are alive, therefore He said, "When ye see the abomination of desolation."


    Easy decision.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Yes; a careful reading of Matthew 24:15-44 and of Revelation 6:12 to the end, clearly proves that it all awaits fulfilment in the last days.
    The ECF's could not have known the long time decreed for this Christian age. They and every so called prophecy expert until now were not given the truth of prophecy. Daniel 12:9-10
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Even if they had known, it would have been of no significance to them. For when they wrote, they recognized many of the Matthew 24 prophecies to be already historically fulfilled in the 70 AD era.
     
  16. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Ah yes. ".......UNTIL NOW......."
    AMEN! ALLEHUIA!


    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized
    "wars and rumors of wars
    ".

    Matthew 24:
    6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled;
    for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    Mark 13:
    7 “But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled;
    for such things must happen, but the end is not yet
    Luke 21:
    9 “But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified;
    for these things must come to pass first, but the end is not immediate.”


    Written before 70ad?

    1 Peter 4:7
    Of all things yet, the end hath come nigh<1448>;
    be sober-minded! then, and watch! unto the prayers,

    James 5:8
    be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
    that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>;

    Revelation 1:3
    Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
    for the Time/Season is nigh/egguV <1451>.

    Revelation 22:10
    And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
    For the Time/Season is-nigh/egguV <1451>

    Romans 13:
    11 And this knowing the Time,
    that hour it-is already out of sleep to be roused,
    for now nearer/egguteron <1452> of us the Salvation than when we believed.
    12 The Night progresses, the yet Day has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>.
    We should be putting off then the works of the Darkness and we should be putting on the implements of the Light.

    Revelation 12:10
    And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, 'Now! did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ,
    because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;


    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    But note that Matthew 24:21 could not possibly have been fulfilled in 70 AD, because, for example, World War II was much worse.

    Also, the future war of Revelation 6:4-8 will be even worse still. See post #4 above.

    Is he saying that Titus placed a statue of himself in the second Jewish temple in Jerusalem after Titus destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD?

    If so, on what historical source is that claim based?

    Also, what would be the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21 which must occur after the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15? That is, why fee as in Matthew 24:16 if all of the destruction is already over? And how could anyone flee if the Romans have already conquered and occupied the whole area. For everyone would be prevented from fleeing by Roman soldiers.

    Also, note that the Tribulation of Matthew 24, which is the same as the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, could not possibly have occurred in 70 AD, because Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Also, regarding the abomination of desolation, see post #55 above. And see post #83 above.

    -

    For an example of how the Tribulation remains unfulfilled, note that Revelation 12:7-9 has not happened yet, but is part of the things which must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1b).

    For just as what the apostle John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what he saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between the archangel Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).

    Revelation 12:7-9 shows that Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this does not mean that Satan will not be able to deceive the non-Christian world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking that he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and His army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    While those prophecies indeed await fulfillment, note that the "last days" began in the first century AD with Jesus Christ's first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring-out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last three, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8, Psalms 90:4), of the seven, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the New Earth (Revelation 21:1), as in a new surface for the earth, in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future Millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6), which Millennium (1,000 years) will be part of the last, 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

    Note that there is no Christian age, or what is often called "the Church age". For the Church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the Church will continue in the world throughout the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the Church will then continue forever on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5), as in a new surface for the earth.

    Note that they were. For example, the idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the Bible by the Church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

    Also, regarding your reference to Daniel 12:9-10, note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that the book of Revelation was written down in the first century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus Christ's first coming and His crucifixion for our sins.

    So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing down of Revelation (in 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of the books of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these two books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

    Also, Daniel 12:6,8 does not contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all of the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which the prophet Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which have not yet been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the Church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the future Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6). But Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the first century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

    One part of Daniel which could have remained sealed for most people until recently is the understanding of Daniel 12:11-12.

    Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur, and blessed are those Christians who will wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up; and if the seven vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1); and if the first six vials will be poured out over thirty days; then the sixth vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

    It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the sixth vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the Church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus Christ's Second Coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel), and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' Second Coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).
     
  19. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    1 Peter 4:7 . . . the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

    Note that because the end of all things has never happened, the "at hand" in 1 Peter 4:7 can be understood from the viewpoint of God, for whom 1,000 years are like one day (2 Peter 3:8-9, Psalms 90:4).

    The end of all things (1 Peter 4:7) will not occur until about 3,000 AD, when, after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), heaven (the first heaven, the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) will be literally burned up (2 Peter 3:10) prior to the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) and the subsequent creation of a New Heaven (atmosphere) and a New Earth (surface) (Revelation 21:1-8).

    1 Peter 4:7 means that Christians living at any time before this happens should be living godly lives (2 Peter 3:11-18).

    James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    This holy scripture must also be understood from the viewpoint of God, not humans (2 Peter 3:8-9, Psalms 90:4; 2 Peter 1:20-21). For Jesus Christ's Second Coming has not happened yet.

    (See also post #80 above)

    Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

    These holy scriptures must also be understood from the viewpoint of God, not humans (2 Peter 3:8-9, Psalms 90:4). For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 have never happened.

    (See also the "Revelation 1:1" part of post #101 above)

    Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
    12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

    This holy scripture must also be understood from the viewpoint of God, not humans (2 Peter 3:8-9, Psalms 90:4; 2 Peter 1:20-21). For Jesus Christ's Second Coming has not happened yet. That is, Romans 13:11 is referring to our still-future, ultimate salvation at that time, not to our current, initial salvation.

    In the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

    Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    This verse is sometimes claimed as proof that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. But the first half of Revelation 12:10 is said not because Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the rapture and marriage of the Church have occurred by that time. For those things will not occur until Revelation 19:7-21, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Instead, the second half of Revelation 12:10 explains why the first half is said: because Satan the accuser of the Church will have been cast out of heaven to the earth permanently by that time, which will be mid-tribulation.

    That is, when Revelation 12:10 says: "Now is come salvation", it does not mean: "Now is come the rapture", just as when Luke 19:9 says: "This day is salvation come", it does not mean: "This day is the rapture come". Instead, both Revelation 12:10 and Luke 19:9 refer to particular instances of God working out His salvation of Christians. Revelation 12:10 is simply when He will save Christians from any further accusations from Satan before God in heaven.
     
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here is an account of 70 AD by a contemporary recognized Jewish historian. He identifies it as a holocaust. He states, "The cruelties inflicted by the Romans and the rebels within the walls compare with some of the worst atrocities of the 20th century." He certainly doesn't believe that "World War II was much worse".

    In WW2, were there mass crucifixions?
    In WW2, did Jewish factions turn upon their countrymen in orgies of mass slaughter?

    There are no accounts in the Jewish annals of World War II that describe conditions approaching those of 70 AD.

    What contemporary historian who is a recognized authority on both 70 AD and World War II provides credible evidence that "World War II was much worse"?

    Next:

    The choice:

    Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

    John Calvin's Commentary on Matthew 24
    Matthew 24:34
    This generation shall not pass away. Though Christ employs a general expression, yet he does not extend the discourses to all the miseries which would befall the Church, but merely informs them, that before a single generation shall have been completed, they will learn by experience the truth of what he has said. For within fifty years the city was destroyed and the temple was razed, the whole country was reduced to a hideous desert, and the obstinacy of the world rose up against God. Nay more, their rage was inflamed to exterminate the doctrine of salvation, false teachers arose to corrupt the pure gospel by their impostures, religion sustained amazing shocks, and the whole company of the godly was miserably distressed. Now though the same evils were perpetrated in uninterrupted succession for many ages afterwards, yet what Christ said was true, that, before the close of a single generation, believers would feel in reality, and by undoubted experience, the truth of his prediction; for the apostles endured the same things which we see in the present day. (155) And yet it was not the design of Christ to promise to his followers that their calamities would be terminated within a short time, (for then he would have contradicted himself, having previously warned them that the end was not yet;) but, in order to encourage them to perseverance, he expressly foretold that those things related to their own age.



    Easy decision.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
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