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Featured Discussion - Earth calamities and Rumors of war

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Bible2+, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that there is no repository which shows the fulfillment of Matthew 24, which describes the same, never-fulfilled Tribulation and Second Coming as Revelation chapters 6 to 19.

    Not if something is simply being "thrown down". For example, you could throw down a sandcastle by simply swiping it with your hand.

    Also, with regard to how "Babylon" will be "thrown down" (Revelation 18:21b), see the last section of post #24 above.

    But "throwing down" something can mean causing it to collapse.

    Why won't it succeed?

    Also, note that Satan, who is a literal, seven-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his seven-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all of his heart. God could have then granted him immortality, and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer", which means "the morning star".

    After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, and perhaps as even one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden, and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve, miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all of the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

    From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God, and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven, and take rule over all of the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, Satan will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing that this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering which he knows that he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

    Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a war in heaven at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an "alien", but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you that I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I have come to help you through this terrible tribulation which you are experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence, wholly beyond this evil, material universe".

    He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We did not start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced that he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

    "YHWH said that he had created a physical universe (this one), which to us was like what you would call a virtual reality, like the ones you create using computers. And he said that we could enter this universe, and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects, by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities which you create with computers.

    "But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said that to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so that while we were in his universe, each of us would think that all we were were physical entities within his material universe. We would completely forget that we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

    "When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe, and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma? How could we ever notify you of our wishes, when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw was not enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he had not yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant, who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device (this physical universe).

    "But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping it, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma, and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever"
    .

    The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), because it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by YHWH God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") for less than four years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

    Note that there doesn't have to be in order for him to be working in the chapter, and other parts of Revelation.

    (See also post #37 above)

    Note that he wouldn't have to materialize, but could work invisibly, just as he does 1 Peter 5:8 invisibly.

    Also, why do you say that he fails?

    How do you interpret Revelation 8?

    And if you say: "I have no idea what it means", then on what basis do you reject the possibility which has been put forth?

    It would simply be the North Atlantic itself.

    Where in Scripture is that fact denied?

    How do you insist that it will be fulfilled? And based on what?

    Note that the existence of many antichrists (1 John 2:18) does not contradict that there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who is commonly called the Antichrist; just as on the side of good, the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) does not contradict that there is an individual man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is the Son of God (John 20:31).

    (See also the "antichrist" section of post #83 above)

    Note that the idea of the future Antichrist, and the idea of the Trinity, are both spelled out amply in the Bible.

    (See the "antichrist" section of post #83 above. And see the "Trinity" section of post #117 above)

    So what? Are you saying that Luke lied when he wrote down in Greek what Paul said in Greek in Acts 17:24?

    Note again that the reason that the Wailing Wall is revered by religious Jews as their holiest place of worship in the world is because it was an integral part of the second temple complex.

    If it was just a meaningless wall, then they would ignore it.

    They didn't plough the Wailing Wall. So Luke 19:44 and Matthew 24:2 still remain unfulfilled.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    See post #114.

    To throw something requires that it first be lifted up. A swipe is not a throw.


    Revelation 18:21
    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    Notice: “took up” i.e. lifted.

    Revelation 8:8 says nothing about the mountain collapsing.

    Does Scripture say it will?
    It doesn't say it will, and it doesn't say it won't. So it is scripturally irrelevant.

    Yes, he could be at work in every verse in Revelation.

    Yes, we're told to be watchful for an invisible Satan.

    I reject the possibility which has been put forth because, to borrow a portion of a familiar phrase, “nothing in history shows” any natural event which would support the conjectured fantasy. Nothing in recorded natural history documents anything like a great mountain afire cast into the sea, nor as a result, any of the associated phenomena i.e. bloody sea and marine life and vessel destruction. In the absence of any such evidence, any speculations about natural events which “could” happen constitute nothing more than fantasy. They would only move from fantasy to reality upon actual occurrence.

    I don't claim an interpretation myself as yet. But I have little doubt, given the complete absence of supporting physical evidence from the natural world, that there is deeper spiritual meaning.

    For John was “in the spirit” when he witnessed these phenomena. (Revelation 1:10)

    What are the boundaries of the North Atlantic “pond”?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where in Scripture is that fact confirmed?
    Since it is neither confirmed nor denied in Scripture, it is scripturally irrelevant.

    Some ideas are supportable, others not. The future Antichrist is not because it contradicts John's definitions and descriptions of antichrists.

    Luke's own writings do not observe Paul's distinction between the physical and spiritual temple.

    It was not an integral part of the second temple complex, as seen in the link I provided previously. But since it is the only remaining vestige reminiscent of the temple, it is unsurprising that some Jews would consider it holy.

    If they had plowed the wailing wall, and every stone lay on the ground isolated from every other stone, except in a single instance where two stones lay, one atop the other; would Luke 19:44 be fulfilled or unfulfilled?
     
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that it was addressed in post #115 above.

    But note that to "throw down" something needs only a swipe, such as swiping at a house of cards to throw it down.

    Note that is only in the first part of the verse, with regard to the millstone. Not with regard to "Babylon" itself, which will be "thrown down" by nukes.

    (See the "Babylon" part of post #24 above)

    Note that the original Greek can mean that the mountain will be "thrown down", which can be the same as causing it to collapse.

    Note that if Satan causes Revelation 8:8b, then he will succeed. For Revelation 8:8, like the rest of Revelation, has to happen.(Revelation 1:1).

    No, for some Revelation verses refer to good things (Revelation 21). And even some of the future Tribulation will come directly from God Himself (Revelation 16).

    Indeed. And also his deceptions (2 Corinthians 2:11).

    For example, see post #89 above.

    Also, Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians will not forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the third day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ was not resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 did not stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus Christ proves that flesh is not evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh is not evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

    Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, and became trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

    And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation was not that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), as in a new surface for the earth, just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve had not been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done, had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

    So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

    Note that the future Tribulation will be historically unprecedented (Matthew 24:21).

    Note that Mount St. Helens collapsed on one side, and other volcanoes in our time have spewed out huge amounts of mud.

    Also, if a volcanic island collapsed on one side, it would cause a gigantic tsunami.

    What would the latter be?

    Note that all scripture is written down by the inspiration of God's Spirit (2 Peter 1:21; 2 Timothy 3:16). But this does not mean that scriptural prophecy cannot be literally fulfilled, like it was in Isaiah 53, and will be in Zechariah 14.

    They would be the boundaries of the North Atlantic itself. For it in itself is "the pond".

    *******

    Not necessarily, in the sense that the North Atlantic itself could still be "the sea" in Revelation 8:8-9.

    Similarly, Revelation 8:10-11 could refer to part of North America, in that it could refer to a comet striking the earth in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains one-third of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b); and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

    Based on what source?

    How?

    For the future Antichrist will fulfill all of John's definitions and descriptions of antichrists, as well as all of John's descriptions of Revelation's individual-man aspect of "the beast" (e.g. Revelation 13:4-18), who is commonly called the Antichrist.

    (See also the "antichrists" part of post #83 above. And see post #89 above)

    But note that in Acts 17:24 Luke recorded in Greek what Paul said in Greek. And there Paul (in his quoted speech) used "naos" to refer to physical temples. So Paul did not exclusively use "naos" to refer to the spiritual temple of the Church.

    Note that it was, for it was a vital retaining wall for the southwest part of the second temple complex.

    That is, without the Wailing Wall, the second temple complex could have disastrously collapsed on its southwestern side, possibly bringing down even the very temple-building itself, which was in the center of the temple complex.

    Indeed. It is as close as they can get to the second-temple worship experience. For God truly dwelt in the second temple, even at the time of Jesus Christ's first coming (Matthew 23:21).

    And even Christians today continue to worship at the Wailing Wall. For the second temple remained holy to God even after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. That is why the early Church continued to worship God in the second temple while it remained standing (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

    It would be unfulfilled, for there must be not one stone upon the other (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2).
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding the original thread of which this thread is just an offshoot (see post #1 above), it should be noted that there was a horrible story in the news today: The U.S. may back-out of a treaty with Russia which forbids intermediate range nukes, that is, nukes which can be sent by missiles to targets about 300 miles to 3,000 miles away.

    This is horrible because it will increase the number of nukes in the world by the thousands. There are already more than enough nukes held by Russia and the U.S. to utterly destroy every major city in the world. Why would they want to create more?

    Could it be that God will allow this so that "Babylon" can be more easily nuked in our future?

    (See the "Babylon" part of post #24 above)

    --

    Also, in the U.S. there have been many stories about leftist "mobs" attacking conservative people.

    It seems that the left loves the idea of violence (esp. "Antifa" mobs) in order to counter what it sees as "fascist" people.

    But wasn't it the fascists in the past (e.g. the Nazi "brown shirts") who were the ones who used violence to further their political ends?

    God forbid that Christians should ever fall under this spell. For Christians must never employ violence, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39).

    But currently there may have been an outpouring of demonic activity upon mankind so that non-Christian leftists are now being deceived into thinking, and motivated into actually acting-out, the mistaken idea that their violence is a good thing.

    Indeed, the time is coming when Biblical Christians will be killed, even beheaded, throughout the world (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

    And those doing the killing will think that they are doing "God" service (John 16:2b), just as the future Antichrist will say that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

    So the non-Christian, leftist violence which we are seeing today could be a demonic precursor for what is going to happen in our future.

    We Christians will need to face this with non-violence on our part (Matthew 5:39).

    May God help us (Matthew 24:9-13).
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Swipe” is not a synonym of “cast”.

    Revelation 18:21
    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    Babylon will be thrown down “thus” i.e. in the same manner in which the angel “took up” i.e. lifted up, and “cast” i.e. threw down, the millstone.

    Nukes = fantasy.

    There is no suggestion or implication of the mountain collapsing.

    There is no suggestion or implication that Satan is involved in Revelation 8:8 or anywhere in the entire chapter.

    Satan can appear to do good things, such as when he disguises himself as an angel of light. (2 Corinthians 11:14)

    The tribulation of 70 AD, which was future to Christ's prophecy, was and is historically unprecedented.

    Mount St. Helens was not cast into the sea and did not cause any of the phenomena of Revelation 8:8-9, nor has any other volcano in recorded history ever done so, nor will any Canary Islands volcano ever do so.

    John was well aware that everything he wrote was Spirit-inspired. So why did he explicitly declare on four separate occasions (Revelation 1:10; 4:2; 17:3; 21:10) that he was “in the Spirit”, if he already was? There was no need or reason to be in the Spirit if he was observing and experiencing only the temporal literal realm.

    He was placed “in the Spirit” in order to understand the spiritual meanings of his observations and experiences.

    There is no coastal volcano on the Canary Islands, or anywhere else on the boundaries of the 16 million square mile North Atlantic Ocean, which could begin to affect even a small fraction of that area, let alone 1/3.

    He won't, because he is not referenced or identified, and does not exist, in John's definitions and descriptions. Nowhere does John associate the beast in Revelation with the antichrists in his epistles.

    Luke was not with Paul in Athens. He had remained behind in Philippi. He did not hear Paul's speech.

    From the Jewish-sourced link I supplied previously:

    “When the Romans razed the Temple, they left one outer wall standing. They probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them since it was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount. It held no special significance..."

    Luke 4
    18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
    21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

    Jesus had just begun His ministry, and had not yet begun to have the opportunity to fulfill what He declared in verses 18-19. Yet He said in verse 21 that He had.

    So futurismically, He must have been wrong.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    But note that the original Greek word translated as "cast" can mean "thrown down", which can be done with a swipe.

    No, the "thus" refers to the "violence", which could be by nukes.

    Note that nukes are a horrible reality in the world today. And they could not only be involved in the burning of "Babylon" (Revelation 17:16), at the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but could also be employed earlier in the Tribulation, such as during the huge war which will begin the Tribulation (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

    (See also post #40 and post #4 above)

    Note that there is, for the original Greek word translated as "cast" can mean "thrown down", which can refer to it being caused to collapse.

    Note that neither is there anything to forbid his involvement.

    But Revelation 21 refers not to a deception, but to truly good things, from God Himself.

    Note that it wasn't, for Jerusalem and its temple had previously been destroyed in 586 BC, by the Babylonians.

    Also, the events of 70 AD did not fulfill the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, immediately after which Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Note that one of the Canary Islands, which are volcanoes, could very well erupt and collapse on one side just as the volcano of Mount St. Helens did. And the collapse of a Canary Island volcano into the sea would set up a huge tsunami which would destroy huge numbers of ships (in port), just as required by Revelation 8:9b. And volcanoes in our own time have spewed forth huge amounts of mud, which if it occurs in the sea could kill off a lot of marine life, just as required by Revelation 8:9a.

    Note that Spiritual prophecies can be about physical events, just as Isaiah 53 was fulfilled physically, and the never-fulfilled Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled physically.

    (See post #76 above)

    Note that one of the Canary Island volcanoes could very well end up affecting the North Atlantic in the manner described in Revelation 8:9.

    Note that neither does he deny that the individual-man aspect of "the beast" (e.g. Revelation 13:4-18), who is commonly called the Antichrist, will fulfill the antichrist definitions in his epistles.

    (See the "antichrists" part of post #83 above. Also, see post #89 above).

    What verse are you thinking of with regard to your claim that Luke was not with Paul in Athens?

    Are you thinking of Acts 17:14? If so, note that it does not refer to Luke, but only to Silas and Timotheus.

    Also, are you saying that Luke made stuff up, that Paul really didn't say in Greek what Luke says Paul said in Greek in Acts 17:24?

    Key words: "seemed", and "to them", i.e. to the Romans.

    For note that the Wailing Wall holds a very special significance to religious Jews. It is their holiest place of worship in the world. And solely because of its integral connection to the second temple complex.

    No, for the passage refers to what He had been "anointed" and "sent" to do, and would do during His subsequent ministry.

    So nothing that He said was wrong.

    Similarly, nothing that He said in the never-fulfilled Luke 19:44 and Matthew 24:2 was wrong.

    (Or, would you prefer that they were wrong, in order to support preterism? Similarly, would you prefer that the quoted "naos" in Acts 17:24 was wrong, in order to support historicism?)

    (Hopefully not. Hopefully you will stick with every word of the Bible (Matthew 4:4, 2 Timothy 3:16), even when it supports Christian Futurism.)
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Swipe” is not a synonym of “throw”.
    “Throw” is not a synonym of “swipe”.

    Grammatically it doesn't.

    Revelation 18:21
    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    Dictionary definition of “thus”:
    in this or that manner or way

    i.e. In this manner, as with the millstone, taken up (lifted) and cast (thrown)), violently, shall Babylon be thrown down.

    "Thus" grammatically refers to the millstone, not the violence.

    And hell could be heaven, because no Scripture explicitly and specifically denies the possibility.

    “Collapse” does not appear in the definition of “cast” or “throw” or “down”, nor in Revelation 8:8.

    And hell could be heaven, because no Scripture explicitly and specifically denies the possibility.

    Those who are deceived are unaware of it, and believe they are experiencing truly good things, from God Himself.

    But not by the Romans and the Jews themselves, which was unprecedented before, and unsurpassed since.

    Excerpt from the link which follows:

    "The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

    The role of the Jews in their own destruction was one of the reasons that Christ had predicted:

    Matthew 24
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Only if you deny the vast repository of evidence.

    Debunked previously.

    John was placed in the Spirit to enable spiritual understanding of spiritual realities.

    Debunked previously.

    Whatever definitions the beast has fulfilled are no different from those which every other of the many antichrists (1 John 2:18) can fulfill, and have fulfilled.

    Correct, because Luke had remained behind at Philippi. He did not personally hear Paul's Athens address, but Silas and Timotheus were with Paul (Acts 17:15), and almost certainly did hear him. They also almost certainly were the ones who passed his address on, quite possibly or probably verbally, to Luke, for Paul departed alone from Athens (Acts 18:1).

    They, or Luke, could easily have turned a "hieron" into a "naos".

    For Luke, both in his Gospel and in Acts, never refers to a spiritual temple. He uses both “naos” and “hieron” without distinction to refer to the physical temple. By contrast, Paul in his epistles is consistent in distinguishing between the “naos” spiritual temple and the “hieron” physical temple.

    Since Luke drew no distinction between “naos” and “hieron”, it is unsurprising to see him use “naos” in Acts 17:24.

    It was unconnected.

    “When the Romans razed the Temple, they left one outer wall standing. They probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them since it was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount. It held no special significance..."

    Key words: “it was not part of the Temple itself”.
    Not your misread:
    “it seemed it was not part of the Temple itself”.

    And had begun to do, thus fulfilling the Scripture.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    But note that in Revelation 8:8 the original Greek word (ballo: G0906) can mean "thrown down" (Revelation 18:21b). And something can be thrown down with a swipe.

    Note that it's only the "violently" part that will apply to "Babylon". For it will not be picked up and thrown into the sea. Instead, it will be burned (Revelation 17:16).

    (See the "Babylon" part of post #24 above)

    Note that the Bible does distinguish between heaven (up) and hell (down) (e.g. Job 11:8, Amos 9:2, Luke 10:15).

    Also, it should be pointed out that there are actually two literal hells, one temporal and one eternal. The temporal hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23), and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of non-Christians go when they die, and where they are tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus Christ's first coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died. But the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).

    After Jesus Christ fulfilled the Gospel by suffering and dying on the Cross for our sins, and rising physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), He went down into Hades and preached the fulfillment of the Gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6), and then drew the souls of obedient believers there who had died in faith (Hebrews 11:13) up with Him when He ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient Christians go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).

    At Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will bring with Him from heaven the souls of all obedient Christians who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), all non-Christians of all times will be physically resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13) and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46), and Tophet in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33).

    Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside one wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8), as in a new surface for the earth. Christians will go forth from New Jerusalem on the New Earth to witness the eternal torment of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

    But note that to "throw down" something can mean to cause it to collapse.

    But note that there is no deception in Revelation 21. It is truly from God.

    Note that 70 AD was not unprecedented with regard to Jews destroying themselves. For starving Jews in Jerusalem even killed and ate their own children during the siege of Jerusalem in 586 BC (Jeremiah 19:9, Lamentations 4:10), and before that during the siege of the Israelite city of Samaria in 722 BC (2 Kings 6:25-29). The future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be so bad as "was not since the beginning of the world" (Matthew 24:21).

    Also, note that World War II was worse than 70 AD, even just for the six million Jews who were so horribly killed in the Holocaust. And not even World War II fulfilled the detailed Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will occur in our future.

    Also, Matthew 24:21 refers to the second half (Revelation chapters 11 to 18) of the future Tribulation, the first half (Revelation chapters 6 to 10) being in Matthew 24:7-8.

    Also, while Matthew 24:21 refers to the future, worldwide Tribulation like has never affected the whole world before, Matthew 24:21 does not require that the future Tribulation will be worse for every individual than, for example, Job's personal tribulation, or the Jews' tribulation in the Holocaust, or the tribulation of some people in the early Church (e.g. Revelation 2:10). For some people in the Church will be divinely protected on the earth during the future Tribulation (Revelation 12:6,14-16).

    Also, while the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be worse than any prior tribulation (Mark 13:19), it will not be worse in the sense that less than eight people (cf. 1 Peter 3:20) will survive the Tribulation (for millions of people could survive it), but in the sense that the Tribulation would leave no survivors at all if its duration had not been limited by God (Mark 13:20).

    That is, Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord had not already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. That is, the Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that He will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the future Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

    And the Lord will return "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the destruction of the cities of the nations during the seventh vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord had not shortened the number of days of the future Tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the seventh vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at His return) brought on by the ten kings of the future Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the seventh vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

    Note that the Tribulation of Matthew 24:21 was not fulfilled in 70 AD. For Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur immediately after that Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

    Note that there is no repository of evidence which shows the fulfillment of Matthew 24, just as there is no repository of evidence which shows the fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, right after which Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    For example, there will be three woes during the future Tribulation (Revelation 8:13, Revelation 9:12, Revelation 11:14).

    The first woe will be the fifth trumpet, the time of the weird, locust-like beings (Revelation 8:13 to 9:12).

    In Revelation 9:12 the second woe will be the sixth trumpet (Revelation 9:13), which Revelation 11:14a shows will include both the weird, horse-like beings of Revelation 9:17-19, and God's future, human Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13.

    Revelation 9:13-19 will occur right before, and then Revelation 11:2b-13 will occur during, the literal 3.5 years of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14).

    In Revelation 9:12 and Revelation 11:14, the third woe will be the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:14-15), which will announce the legal end of the future Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). And then out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the future Tribulation's final stage, which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    How was that possibility debunked?

    (Also, note that there are the volcanic Cape Verde islands, and the Azores, to think about as well.)

    But not exclusively, for not all of Revelation is spiritual. Most of it refers to physical things.

    Similarly, even John 6:63b, for example, is not contradicting that Jesus Christ's words can refer to physical things. For example, Mark 10:33-34 was fulfilled physically (Luke 24:39).

    Note that not every antichrist has ruled and been worshipped by the whole world (Revelation 13:4-18). Indeed, not even one has yet. But the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will do so.

    (See the "antichrists" part of post #83 above)

    Based on what verse?

    Also, are you saying that Luke was mistaken when he quoted Paul as using "naos" in Acts 17:24?

    That is, is the original Greek Bible wrong in some places?

    Note that Acts 17:15-16 shows the opposite: the speech in which Acts 17:24 was said occurred while Paul was still waiting for Silas and Timotheus to arrive in Athens from Berea (Acts 17:13-16). And they did not meet up with Paul until Acts 18:5.

    Note that there is no "alone" in Acts 18:1, just as there is nothing to prove that Luke did not hear Paul's speech in which Acts 17:24 was said.

    For, indeed, sometimes Luke was the only one with Paul (2 Timothy 4:11).

    Then are you saying that the Bible is in error? And are you willing to say that just to support the mistaken, man-made idea of historicism?

    -

    It is sometimes asked: "But is not the Bible's inerrancy a stupid idea, because it can be defeated by just a single error anywhere in the Bible?"

    The answer is no, for the Bible's inerrancy is taught by the Bible itself (2 Timothy 3:16-17), while the idea of the Bible's errancy renders it useless. For then we can claim that any part of the Bible which we personally do not like is in error. And so we vitiate the whole purpose of the Bible, which is to be "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:16b-17). That is, if the Bible were errant, we could reject its doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness whenever we personally felt like it (2 Timothy 4:3-4), claiming that it is in error in those instances.

    Note that nowhere in his epistles does Paul ever say that "naos" cannot ever be used to refer to a physical temple.

    And, indeed, the Bible says that Paul, in his speech in Acts 17:24, used "naos" to refer to physical temples.

    So let us believe the Bible, the Word of God, and not any man-made ideas which contradict it (2 Timothy 4:2-4).

    Note that the Wailing Wall was connected to the temple complex, and was even an integral part of it, without which the temple complex, and even the temple building itself, could have collapsed into ruin.

    Only if by "the Temple" is meant just the single building in the very center of the temple complex.

    But the Wailing Wall is still the holiest place of worship in the world left to the Jews, because of its integral connection to the second temple complex.

    (See also post #85 above)

    Note that while Luke 4:17-21 was fulfilled, there has never been any fulfillment of other scriptures, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Luke 19:44, and Matthew 24:2.

    Indeed, even the entire Tribulation and Second Coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 have never been fulfilled.
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    You guys have too much time on your hands!
    Do something useful, like digging the garden.

    What will happen after the Sixth Seal world changer, will be known to us, as the Lord lifts the veil over the prophesies, after that Day. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 29:18, Jeremiah 23:20
     
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding the sixth seal, see the "volcano" part of post #45 above.

    Also, what will happen after the sixth seal in Revelation 6 is already made known to us by Revelation chapters 7 to 22.

    Regarding Isaiah 35:4-5, note that it can refer to the future Millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6), after Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in vengeance in Revelation 19:11-21.

    Regarding Isaiah 29:18, it can also refer to the future Millennium.

    Regarding Jeremiah 23:20, it brings to mind Revelation 10:7, where "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (Luke 2:39). Revelation 10:7 means that the prophetic writings regarding the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will finish being performed at the Tribulation's seventh trumpet. For out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the final stage of the Tribulation, the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

    In Revelation 10:7 the "mystery" is currently known by the Church, just as, for example, the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is currently known by the Church. For the mystery in Revelation 10:7 has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Revelation 10:7), just as the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Thinking that a volcano in the Northern hemisphere will achieve all the prophesied effects of the Sixth Seal, is just impossible and unscriptural.
    Revelation 6:12-17;
    I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, – At this moment a Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19 Triggered by the attack onto Israel, as per Psalms 83, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 50:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

    There was a violent earthquake – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes. Haggai 2:6, Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalms 18:7

    The sun turned black as a funeral pall – Acts 2:20 The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

    The moon became a red as bloodJoel 2:31 The superheated hydrogen plasma strikes the moon and causes a thermite reaction with the aluminum oxide moon dust. As well as: the bright reflection of the initial flash. Isaiah 30:26a

    The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth and there may be a meteor shower. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

    The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this multi billion ton pressure wave of superheated hydrogen plasma. Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, Isaiah 51:6

    Every mountain and island moved from their place – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Deuteronomy 32:22, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13 Also may cause a magnetic pole reversal.

    Everyone from high to lowly hid themselves – every person on earth will be terrified by what is coming and they scramble for cover. Ezekiel 7:15-19, Zephaniah 1:3 & 11, Luke 21:25-26

    They called out: Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb – People will dive for cover and most will survive, as they see this disaster approaching. The main mass of a CME takes 24 hours to arrive on earth. Isaiah 2:19, Isaiah 28:21-22, Jeremiah 25:38, Luke 23:30

    For the great Day of the Lord has come and who can stand? Deuteronomy 32:22, Ezekiel 7:7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 1:15.

    This is the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible, it is this terrible event that enables the establishment of a One World Government. But those who took heed of the warnings, Isaiah 26:20-21, took shelter and at the same time called to the Lord for protection, Acts 2:21, 1 Peter 1:5, Psalms 68:1-3, Joel 2:32 & 3:16 and will receive the great blessings the Lord has for His faithful Christian people.
     
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Nicely said..........that would appear to be correct.
    [Have you and/or others seen this thread?]


    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized
    Controversy between Luke 21[70ad], and Matthew 24 Mark 13


    Let's look at the words "thrown down" and "cast".........

    "thrown down"


    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

    2647. kataluo from 2596 and 3089;
    to loosen down (disintegrate), i.e. (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specially (compare 2646) to halt for the night:--destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.
    3089. luo loo'-o a primary verb;
    to "loosen" (literally or figuratively):--break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-)loose, melt, put off.

    Cast-down/out/thrust

    Hebrew
    H1644 (YLT)

    1644 garash a primitive root;
    to drive out from a possession; especially to expatriate or divorce:--cast up (out), divorced (woman), drive away (forth, out), expel, X surely put away, trouble, thrust out.

    Greek
    G906 (YLT)

    906. ballo a primary verb;
    to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare 4496.

    Faith, Mountain, and Sea Matt 21:21/Mark 11:3
    Faith, mountain and sea

    Matthew 21:21
    Answering the Jesus answering said to them, "Verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to the Mountain, this-one, ye may saying,
    'Be being lifted up! and be being cast<906>! into the Sea', it shall be becoming"; [Micah 7:19 Hebrews 12:18 Revelation 8:8]

    Hebrew 12:18
    For ye came not near to the mountain touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of sayings, which those having heard did entreat that a word might not be added to them,
    Matthew 18:6
    and whoever may cause to stumble one of those little ones who are believing in me, it is better for him that a weighty millstone may be hanged upon his neck, and he may be sunk in the depth of the sea.
    Matthew 24:41
    two women shall be grinding in the mill<3458>, one is received, and one is left.
    Luke 17:
    2 it is more profitable to him if a weighty millstone,<3458> is put round about his neck, and he hath been cast<906> into the sea, than that he may cause one of these little ones to stumble.
    35 two women shall be grinding at the same place together, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
    [Matthew 18:6 Mark 9:42]

    Micah 7:19
    He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their Sins into the depths of the Sea.

    Revelation 18:
    21 And one strong Messenger did take up a stone, as a great millstone<3458>, and did cast<906> it to the sea, saying, 'Thus with violence shall Babylon be cast<906>, the great City, and may not be found any more at all
    22 and voice of harpers, and musicians, and pipers, and trumpeters, may not be heard at all in Thee any more;
    and any artizan of any art may not be found at all in thee any more;
    and noise of a millstone may not be heard at all in Thee any more


    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    ^_^ Says the pot to the kettle...
    Retirement can do that to a person...
    :)

    old elderly-people-play-with-balloons-videocover.jpg

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  16. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    At the Temple/Jerusalem discourse, it was mainly the buildings of the Temple, and primarily the most sacred and holy of all the buildings, the Sanctuary, which is shown being measured in Reve 11:
    [most versions have "temple" and why I like YLT]


    G3485 (YLT)

    Strong's Number G3485 matches the Greek ναός (naos),
    which occurs 46 times in 40 verses

    Revelation 11:1
    And there was given to me a reed like to a rod/staff, and the Messenger stood, saying, 'Rise! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of God, and the Altar, and those worshiping in it';


    WHAT "MANNER OF BUILDINGS AND STONES" 1ST CENTURY TEMPLE

    Matthew 24:
    1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
    And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings<3619>of the Temple.
    2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
    Amen I am saying to ye,
    not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down.”

    Mark mentions "buildings" and "manner of stones"

    Mark 13:1
    And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings<3619>"
    2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.<3619>
    Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down

    Luke mentions the manner of stones in Mark as "goodly"

    Luke 21:
    5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly<2570> stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned
    6 “These which ye are beholding.
    Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down


    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?" After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.
    There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection. Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain ; but the soldiers, equally void of pity and remorse, slew even the sick and the aged.

    In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! -- This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"


    Luke 19:
    43 That shall be arriving days upon thee, and thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to thee, and shall be encompassing thee, and pressing thee every which place.
    44 And shall be leveling thee and thy offspring in thee, and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation/episkophV <1984>".

    Revelation 18:9
    and shall be lamenting<2799> and shall be wailing over Her the kings of the land, the ones with Her fornicating and indulging, whenever they may be observing the smoke of the fireing of Her

    The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy.


    Jeremiah 26:18
    “Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts:
    “Zion shall be plowed like a field,
    Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins,
    And the mountain of the temple[fn]
    Like the bare hills of the forest.” '[fn]

    Micah 3:12
    Therefore because of you
    Zion shall be plowed like a field,
    Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins,
    And the mountain of the temple[fn]
    Like the bare hills of the forest.


    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Great post LLoJ.

    But Bible2+ will have none of it, as you see in previous posts.
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Neither in history before 70 AD, nor in history after 70 AD including WWII, are found atrocities visited upon the Jews which compare to those of 70 AD itself.

    One appalling example is that of mass crucifixions. There are no documented examples on the scale of those of 70 AD at any other time in Jewish history.

    A search of "nazis crucify jews" returns one match for one individual.

    Crucifixion is widely considered to be the most cruel form of torment and death. Our Lord suffered it for us.

    Josephus describes it in paragraph 1 here.

    It is one of the numerous fulfillments of Jesus words:

    Matthew 24:21
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  19. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that it isn't, for see the "volcano" part of post #45 above.

    Note that nothing in Revelation 6:12-17 requires a CME. But one could occur years later at the fourth vial (Revelation 16:8), for see the "vials" part of post #24 above.

    Regarding Isaiah 30:26, see post #97 above.

    Regarding Malachi 4:1, it can refer to the burning up of wicked people who will still be alive at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Regarding Zephaniah 3:8, see the "Zephaniah 3:8" part of post #45 above.

    Regarding Jeremiah 23:19, there the original Hebrew word (ca'ar: H5591) translated as "whirlwind" can mean "tempest", as in Isaiah 29:6, which will occur right before Jesus Christ defeats all nations, which will have conquered Jerusalem (Isaiah 29:7). This refers to the same time as Zechariah 14, which will be fulfilled right before and at Jesus future, Second Coming. So Jeremiah 23:19 could be fulfilled at the Second Coming.

    Regarding Psalms 83, see the "Psalms 83" part of post #16 above.

    Regarding Psalms 11:4-6, note that Psalms 11:6 can refer to Revelation 20:9b, which is the same event as Ezekiel 38:22. It will not occur until after the future Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10).

    Regarding Psalms 50:1-3, note that Psalms 50:3 refers to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), just as Psalms 50:4-5 refers to what will happen at that time (Mark 13:27).

    Regarding 2 Peter 3:7, see the "2 Peter 3:7" part of post #18 above.

    Regarding Haggai 2:6, note that in Haggai 2:6-7 the desire of all nations (Revelation 5:9) who will come right after the shaking of heaven (Matthew 24:29), and earth (Revelation 16:18,20), and all nations (Revelation 16:19), is Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming.

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    Regarding Deuteronomy 32:22, it could refer to the same event as 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 20:11b, which will occur at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11), and which will be followed by the creation of a New Heaven and New Earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1), as in a new atmosphere (first heaven) and surface for the earth.

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    Regarding Isaiah 26:18-20, note that verse 18 is a similar idea to Daniel 12:7b, which means that at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will come to a Church which will have been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed by God to make war against the Church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all of the physical power of the Church that the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), of all times. And at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all of the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God will not share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

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    Also, regarding Isaiah 26:18-20, note that Isaiah 26:19 refers to the physical resurrection of the Church (of all times), which will not happen until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-57, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    But Isaiah 26:20 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 26:20 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 26:19, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 26:20 is addressing those in the Church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These Christians will still be waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they will not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 refers to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). There would be no reason for resurrected, immortal people in heaven to hide (Isaiah 26:20b) from any events happening down on the earth.

    Also, Christians can prepare their Isaiah 26:20 chambers now, and hide in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the seven vials (Revelation 16), but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the Church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

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    Regarding Amos 8:8-9, note that Amos 8:9 can refer to a literal darkening of the sky on a clear day at noon, by a total solar eclipse. For in Amos 8:9 the original Hebrew word (bow': H0935) translated as "to go down" can simply mean "stricken" (Genesis 24:1).

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    Regarding Psalms 18:7, note that Psalms 18:7-9 can be fulfilled literally at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

    Regarding Joel 2:31, it can indeed refer to the sixth seal, but it does not require a CME instead of the smoke from a huge volcanic eruption obscuring the sun.

    Regarding Amos 5:20, note that Amos 5:18-20 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. For in its context, Amos 5:18-20 is addressing the ancient northern kingdom of Israel (Amos 5:1,4-6,21-27), before God brought punishment and defeat to it (Amos 2:6,14-16, Amos 3:1 to 5:27) in 722 BC, at the hands of the Assyrians, who took Israel into captivity into Assyria, "beyond Damascus" (Amos 5:27).

    Regarding Joel 2:31, it can indeed refer to the sixth seal, but it does not require a CME instead of the smoke from a huge volcanic eruption causing the moon to appear blood red, like sometimes happens during large forest fires.

    Regarding Isaiah 30:26a, see post #97 above.

    Regarding Isaiah 34:4, to properly understand that verse, it should be read in its context (Isaiah 34:1-17).

    Isaiah 34:4 refers to a future event which will affect "all nations" (Isaiah 34:2), the whole world (Isaiah 34:1).

    In Isaiah 34:5, "Idumea" (Edom) is not (as is sometimes claimed) the ancient nation of Edom (present-day southern Jordan), but represents all nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as the apostle Paul employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 36:1) to represent all nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22). And in Isaiah 34:6, "Bozrah" is not the ancient city of Bozrah, but represents all corrupt civilizations of all times throughout the world, just as the "Babylon" which will be destroyed in our future in Revelation chapters 17-18 is not the literal, ancient city of Babylon (nor the present-day one, in Iraq), but represents all corrupt civilizations of all times throughout the world.

    Isaiah 34 does not (as is sometimes claimed) refer to the destruction of the ancient city of Bozrah. For its territory is in present-day Jordan, and it is still inhabited (it could be the city of Busaira). It is not an eternally-burning land of fire and brimstone which no living person ever passes through, and will not ever pass through for all eternity (Isaiah 34:9-10).

    Isaiah 34 will not be fulfilled until the future, Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the first heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be resurrected, judged, and cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).

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    Regarding Isaiah 28:2, it brings to mind the hail part of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:21) of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    See the "volcano" part of post #45 above for how Revelation 6:14 could be fulfilled by the eruption of a huge volcano.

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    Regarding Jeremiah 30:23, see the comments regarding Jeremiah 23:19 above in this post.

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    Regarding Isaiah 34:4, see the comments regarding it above in this post.

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    Regarding 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, see the comments regarding 2 Peter 3:7 above in this post. Regarding 2 Peter 3:10, and its context of 2 Peter 3:10-13, note that in the Day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1), onto which the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

    But the Day of the Lord will not immediately bring the destruction of the earth's atmosphere and surface. For the Day of the Lord will begin at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after His Second Coming, He will establish His Kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least seven years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11). All of these events, from Jesus' Second Coming to the Great White Throne Judgment, will be part of the Day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

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    Regarding Isaiah 51:6, it brings to mind Hebrews 1:10-12, which refers to when our present atmosphere (the first heaven) and the current surface of the earth will be destroyed by God and replaced with a New Heaven and New Earth (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:12-13), as in a new atmosphere and surface for the earth.
     
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding Deuteronomy 32:22, see the comments regarding it in post #139 above.

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    Regarding Jeremiah 4:23-24, note that nothing requires its fulfillment at the sixth seal, or by a CME.

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    Regarding Habakkuk 3:6, note that its context of Habakkuk 3:4-6 could refer to the brightness of Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8b). In Habakkuk 3:4 the original Hebrew word (H2253) translated as "hiding" can refer to a concealment (Strong's Hebrew Dictionary). But it can simply mean that some of Jesus' power at His Second Coming will be contained within horns which will miraculously (and temporarily) protrude from His hand at that time.

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    Regarding Isaiah 13:13, to properly understand the timing of that verse, it should be read in its context (Isaiah 13:1-22).

    The city of Babylon referred to in Isaiah 13 (verses 1,19) is not (as is sometimes claimed) the ancient city of Babylon, just as it is not the symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" of Revelation chapters 17-18. Instead, it is only the present-day, literal city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    In Isaiah 13:3 the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the Church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven" when they physically descend from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus Christ as He alone wages war against the world's armies at His physical return from heaven (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9 the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, Second-Coming Day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

    Isaiah 13:10,13 refers to the same, future, Second-Coming time as Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:15.

    Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus Christ's defeat of the world's armies at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the Church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East which in ancient times was called "Media", and is now in northwestern Iran. The Kurds who now live there, and in surrounding areas, claim to be the descendants of the ancient Medes.

    In Isaiah 13:17 the "Medes" are not the ancient Medes who conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes did not make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

    In Isaiah 13:19-22 the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon (in Iraq) has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 will not be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming.

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    Regarding a magnetic pole reversal, see the "vials" part of post #24 above.

    Regarding Ezekiel 7:15-19, note that its context in Ezekiel 7:14 refers to God's wrath against Israel's army (i.e., it will be defeated), just as the chapter is about the destruction of the land of Israel (Ezekiel 7:2) by a foreign enemy (Ezekiel 7:24,21,15). This could refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and Judah by the Babylonians in 586 BC, just as, for example, the sins going on in Jerusalem in the time of the prophet Ezekiel were called the sins of Israel (Ezekiel 8:6-18).

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    Regarding Zephaniah 1:3 & 11, see the "Zephaniah" part of post #45 above. Regarding Zephaniah 1:11, "Maktesh" (H4389) could have referred to a prominent market in ancient Jerusalem.

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    Regarding Luke 21:25-26, it is sometimes claimed that it contradicts Luke 17:26-30. But this is not the case, for Luke 17:26-30 means that non-Christians will not be worried about any future, Second Coming of Jesus Christ until it takes them by surprise. And Luke 21:25-27 means that they will become horribly worried only when the signs accompanying the Second Coming (in Luke 21:27) actually begin to happen, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-30).

    Similarly, Matthew 24:37-41 means that non-Christians will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed (by Jesus Christ Himself: Revelation 19:15-21, Isaiah 63:3) at His future, Second Coming, until it actually happens. For they could think that the Second Coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the future Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned (via "reincarnation"). And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's Flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so non-Christians at the end of the future Tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat and kill them.

    For during the future Tribulation's second half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the Church (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

    And near the end of the future Tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful Two Witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the Two Witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the Tribulation's final stage), the people of the world will not lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the Tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
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