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Featured Discussion - Earth calamities and Rumors of war

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Bible2+, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,138
    Non-Denom
    Romans 11:28 says that the election is beloved. Paul confirms that this refers to believers in Christ in His Church, comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles:

    1 Thessalonians 1:4
    Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

    Thus within the nation of Israel, Paul is referring to Israelitish believers in Christ.

    Where does Romans 11:28 say that non-Christian religious Jews are beloved?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right.

    And for an example of a prophecy that has never happened, there is a verse which says that the future, False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20)...

    Revelation 13:14a . . . deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast . . .

    This, like Revelation 19:20's "before him", could mean that the future, False Prophet will have power to perform miracles only while in the physical presence of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"). What could happen is that in the future a secretly-apostate pope (i.e. the False Prophet) who has never performed a miracle will tour the world calling for peace between Christians and Muslims, and between Buddhists and Muslims (such as in Myanmar), playing down the unique claims of Biblical Christianity (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12). He could then later be invited to meet with the Antichrist. And during their meeting, which could be televised and webcasted live worldwide, he could suddenly have the power to perform miracles, such as healing a crippled child (with feet deformed by an accident while she was an infant), so that she can walk again; or causing a man blind in both eyes with cataracts, so that he can see again. The live-TV cameras could zoom in on the child's deformed feet as they miraculously change shape into being normal. And the cameras could zoom in on the man's eyes, whitened by cataracts, as they miraculously change color into being normal.

    For Biblical Christians, this could announce the arrival of the False Prophet into the world. For his doctrine will contradict the Bible. That is why even though he will appear to the world like a wonderful, peaceful lamb, his speech (for Biblical Christians) will be like that of a dragon (Revelation 13:11), meaning like that of the dragon Satan himself (Revelation 12:9).

    When you said "to" Israel, did you mean "about" Israel? For note that the apostle Paul can be addressing Gentile Christians throughout the book of Romans. For he saw the church in Rome as being a Gentile congregation (Romans 1:13-15). Romans 2:17 can be addressing Gentile Christians at Rome who were also Jewish proselytes, who were "called" Jews (in the religious sense, not the genetic sense), because they had become physically circumcised, and were keeping other rituals of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, just as some Gentile-proselyte "Jews" do today. Also, nothing in Romans 11:13 requires (as is sometimes claimed) that Paul means: "Now I am changing focus, and will start to speak to you Gentiles", instead of meaning: "I am addressing this entire letter to you Gentiles, because that is to whom I am supposed to be ministering". Compare what Romans 15:16, Acts 22:21, and Acts 26:17 say.

    By "Jews", some people think that this means only those of the tribe of Judah. But the truth is that Jews include individuals from tribes of Israel other than Judah. For the apostle Paul is truly a Jew (Acts 22:3), and he is of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1). Indeed, Jews include individuals from all twelve of Israel's tribes. For there are no lost tribes, insofar as the ten northern tribes were not entirely lost to history. In 722 BC the northern kingdom of Israel fell, and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the ten northern tribes in themselves were not lost to history.

    For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom of Israel, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all ten of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so, by definition, they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the ten northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of King Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It is for these reasons that, later, the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the first century AD could be referred to as including all twelve tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22,5), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

    So the people alive today who are descended from a first century AD Jew would include individuals from all twelve tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they are Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and did not intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity, over the past 2,700 years their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

    -

    While God knows which individuals alive today are descended from one of the twelve sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the twelve genetic tribes of Israel arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews are not considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all nonelect individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

    Some genetic Israelites are Christians, and so are members of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul the apostle (Acts 22:3) is a member of the Church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-Christian genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they are elect (Romans 11:25,28). All of the still-living, elect, non-Christian genetic Israelites who do not become Christians before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will become Christians (and so will become members of the Church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at His Second Coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect genetic Israelites will eventually become Christians and be saved from hell, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved from hell, just as most of humanity in general, whether Jews or Gentiles, will never be saved from hell (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

    -

    Just as those individuals of the tribe of Benjamin, for example (Romans 11:1), are Jews (Acts 22:3) because they are descended from those who lived in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:1-3), so those individuals of all of the other tribes of Israel are Jews who are descended from those who came to live in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17). For the definition of "Jew" includes those who have connection with the territory of Judah (See Strong's word numbers G2453, G2448, H3063, and H3064), not just those who are genetically a part of the tribe of Judah.

    An analogy would be people born in different countries in Europe, people whose ancestors were also born in those different countries, going back into ancient times. If they immigrate to America and become naturalized citizens of America, this will not change their genetic identities. They will still be genetically English, or French, or German, or Italian, or Spanish, or Greek, etc. And only the original inhabitants of America, the American Indians, can be said to be genetic Americans. In this analogy, the nation/territory of America represents the kingdom/territory of Judah. The European immigrants represent the genetic members of the tribes of Israel other than Judah. All Americans, including the European immigrants who became naturalized citizens of America, represent all Jews. And the American Indians represent the genetic members of the tribe of Judah. Again, this is just an analogy for how "Jews" can include genetic members of every tribe of Israel.

    -

    Also, the twelve tribes of Israel are not countries or regions (as is sometimes claimed), but consist of individuals who can be living in any country or region. Otherwise, one's tribe would change whenever one moved from one country or region to another. Also, nothing requires that any of the nominally-Christian nations today are descended from any of the ancient twelve tribes of Israel, instead of them all being simply Gentile nations. For Christians come from every ethnicity on the earth (Revelation 5:9b). And only a remnant of genetic Israel gets saved (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity as a whole gets saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14). Also, the entire Church throughout the world is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12).

    Regarding Matthew 21:43, it is addressing non-Christian, nonelect Jews, whom God does not consider to be the true Israel (Romans 9:6-24), or true Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Philippians 3:3), or true children of Abraham or of God, but the children of Satan (John 8:39-47, Revelation 3:9, Revelation 2:9b); just as all nonelect people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of Satan (Matthew 13:38-42, cf. 1 John 3:8-10).

    The nation in Matthew 21:43b is the Church (1 Peter 2:9), which includes both Jewish and Gentile Christians (1 Corinthians 12:13). And this nation will come to include those elect Jews who will become Christians at any point in the future, including at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 11:25-29).

    -

    Regarding your reference to Romans 9:27, it means that only a remnant of genetic Israel will become Christian, just as only a remnant of humanity as a whole will become truly Christian (Matthew 7:14). For only a remnant of Israel and humanity as a whole is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14).

    By "heaven", do you mean the third heaven? If so, see the "heaven" part of post #153 above.

    Regarding the Land, note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly Christian Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future Millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land, and all of the other promises given by God to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7), along with all of the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past, or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that election is different than salvation. For elect people are elected (chosen) by God before they get saved (Romans 11:28, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10). During their lifetime, elect people are eventually granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) because they are elect (Acts 13:48b). Also, while elect people cannot become nonelect, after they become Christians they need to be careful not to wrongly employ their free will in such a way that they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30, Hebrews 6:4-8).

    What makes them still non-Christian is that they are still enemies of the Gospel (Romans 11:28-29).

    Romans 11:28 means that some non-Christians are the genetic descendants of Abraham (John 8:37, Acts 13:26, Romans 11:1, Acts 7:2, Acts 3:25). And some of these non-Christians are elect, and are beloved in part because of their genetic descent (Romans 11:28-29).
     
  4. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  5. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,501
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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  6. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,501
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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the vials (Revelation 16) will be the final stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. See the "chronological" part of post #63 above. And see the "seventh vial" part of post #153 above.

    Note that nothing requires that God's wrath will begin at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17). See the "sixth seal" part of post #37 above. And see the "blood" part of post #109 above.

    Note that He doesn't. Instead, He does not return until Revelation 19.

    Regarding the sixth seal, see the "volcano" part of post #146 above.

    *******

    But not right afterward. See the "seventh trumpet" part of post #166 above.

    Note that the Church will go through the vials without being appointed to God's wrath. See the "Revelation 16:15" part of post #37 above.

    Note that there is no return of Jesus in Revelation 14. Instead, Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus Christ sitting on a single cloud in heaven and reaping into heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the Church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the future Antichrist during his literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

    That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of being killed for not worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do these things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do these things, even if they are killed by the Antichrist their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus Christ into heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient Church (of all times) at Jesus' future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient Christians can have the comfort of God's Holy Spirit at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.
     
  8. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Do they mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the Church, sometime before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, of only those in the Church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation, and/or by living holy lives? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that anyone in the Church will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire Church will not be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which will be the time of Jesus' Second Coming, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for those in the Church to be ready for the Second Coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) does not have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

    For some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

    Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any Christian will be left behind at the rapture.

    Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that these passages refer only to what will happen at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the Second Coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be non-Christians who will be taken to where they will be killed by Jesus Himself, and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

    Those "left" where they are at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include non-Christians who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the future Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These non-Christians will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected Church during the Millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the Millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

    Before the Millennium, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming those in the Church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that the Church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the Church can then be married to Him (Revelation 19:7), in the sky, before He descends from the sky (the first heaven) to bring the Second-Coming wrath of God upon non-Christians (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

    So Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood from God, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the Church will be raptured into the sky at the Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7), before Jesus Himself brings the Second-Coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).
     
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    If the U.S. withdraws from eastern Syria, this will be a colossal mistake.

    First, it will leave the Kurds there open to annihilation by Russian/Syrian airstrikes and Turkish shelling. The U.S. will have abandoned the Kurds after they did almost all of the grunt work in defeating ISIS in eastern Syria. The U.S. will be a Judas to the Kurds, which could open the U.S. to divine judgment in the form of natural disasters.

    Second, the U.S. withdrawal will allow Russia to take control of eastern Syria, increasing its power in the Middle East even more, to the further detriment of U.S. influence there.

    -

    There is no strategic reason whatsoever for the U.S. to abandon eastern Syria. It would be a totally senseless move.

    May God help the Kurds.
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Also, Trump needs to remember that he is against Iran and its influence in the Middle East.

    But his withdrawal from eastern Syria will only allow Iran to send its forces (with Russian and Syrian permission) into eastern Syria, thereby increasing Iran's power and influence in the Middle East, especially over Iraq.

    -

    Also, it is said that Trump decided to withdraw after speaking on the phone with Erdogan.

    What did Erdogan say that convinced Trump to take out U.S. troops so precipitously?

    -

    Also, the Kurds in eastern Syria could avoid annihilation by Russian and Syrian air strikes by simply asking for more autonomy from Assad, denying that they want to overthrow him.

    Russia could fully agree to this, for a year or two, so that the Kurds in eastern Syria could get comfortable and become willing to lay down their arms.

    But then the screws could tighten, and Assad (with Russian and Iranian help) could re-establish his tyranny over the Kurds and Sunni Arabs in eastern Syria.

    Then we will be back where we started. For the Sunni Arabs will then turn again to (Sunni Arab) ISIS to liberate them from Syrian tyranny, like they did before. And the Kurds in eastern Syria will also revolt.

    So eastern Syria will be plunged back into chaos again, and the U.S. will want to send troops there again to help squash ISIS again.

    But a stitch in time saves nine: Why not leave the 2,000 U.S. troops in eastern Syria currently to maintain the status quo, instead of having to in a couple of years send 18,000 U.S. troops back to eastern Syria to squash ISIS all over again?

    Just leave everything alone as it is now.

    Please, for the sake of all of the people in eastern Syria who do not want to go back under Assad's tyranny, and for all of the future U.S. soldiers who could be killed or wounded in having to fight ISIS all over again.

    Please, do not withdraw the U.S. troops from eastern Syria.
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Russia just successfully tested its Avangard supersonic boost-glide weapon, which poses a serious threat to the U.S. and its allies, for they have no defense against it.

    For Russia's new glider weapon descends so fast, and with such maneuverability, that none of the Western missile-defense systems could target it successfully. For they depend on determining the course of a descending missile and then launching an interceptor missile at a trajectory which will intercept it. But if the descending missile is able to alter its course on its way to its target, as a glider weapon can do, then the interceptor missile would also have to alter its course while in flight in order to intercept the descending missile. But if the descending missile is moving at 20 times the speed of sound, like Avangard, then the interceptor missile would not be able to move fast enough in a new direction in order to intercept the descending missile.

    So the only way to defend against the Avangard supersonic boost-glide weapon is to target it during its boost stage, by employing an anti-missile system located in space.

    This is what Reagan wanted with his "Star Wars" defense system: a constellation of satellites which could target ballistic nuclear weapons at the point when they enter space, before they begin their descent back down to the earth.

    Back in the time of Reagan, it was this threat of the U.S. building such a "Star Wars" defense system which helped to break the back of the Soviet Empire, for it knew that it could never afford to build such a system itself.

    But look at what has happened now: Russia has beaten the U.S. in developing a supersonic boost-glide weapon even though Russia's defense expenditures are a tenth of the U.S.'s.

    This is because Russian forces are lean and mean, while U.S. forces are bloated and featherbedded. And the U.S. military is criminally overcharged by its defense contractors for its weapons systems.

    So the U.S. needs to cut out the fat from its military, and bring its defense contractors to heel, so that it can affordably develop its own supersonic boost-glide weapon, just as Sputnik spurred the U.S. to catch up to Russia with regard to launching satellites.

    And the U.S. needs to affordably develop a "Star Wars" defense system, which could break the back of the present-day Russian Empire.

    But the U.S. will need to look to people like Musk if it is to be able to develop such a defense for a tenth of the cost that would be charged by traditional defense contractors.
     
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