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Dinosaurs on the Ark?

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Eryk

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Job 33:6

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Please, give the link a chance, then respond.

Could Noah's Ark hold all the animals? | carm

You're measuring a flat surface, like a barge. The ark had three decks.

Ok, ill take time to hear ya out. So we have a barge with 3 decks. Lets say 2 are used for animals. So you have 500 feet by 50 feet, by lets say 34 feet high (2/3 of 50).

850,000 square feet of room.

One sec while i take a look at this animal list.
 
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Job 33:6

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Passeriformes 2,236
Squamata 1,938
Rodentia 1,746
Artiodactyla 1,144
Carnivora 696
Therapsida 508
Marsupialia 468
Perrissodactyla 436
Chiroptera 412
Primates 412
Insectivora 404
Saurischia 390
Gruiformes 280
Ornithischia 278
Apodiformes 276
Notoungulata 252
Edentata 250
Charadriiformes 208
Condylartha 198
Galliformes 176
Falconiformes 170
Psittaciformes 164
Captorhinida 152
Thecodontia 144
Piciformes 128





@Eryk

So for reference, a lion is a different kind of animal than a tiger. And these animals are morphologically and genetically different, and are taxonomically different species of animal.

I see over 350 species of primate, so thats 700 primates whereas this list only has 412. Same with marsupials, i see 334 species which is 668 animals, this list only has 468.

So how is this list being defined?

And btw im ignoring the lobster guy so we can focus on your thoughts and not thoughts of others who may not have it all together (if you know what im saying)
 
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Job 33:6

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That would be incorrect. A lion and a tiger are of the same kind.
A lion and a tiger can mate with each other and produce offspring.

I stand corrected. Lets take a different example, crocodiles and alligators, african and indian elephants, they cannot interbreed.
 
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-57

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I stand corrected. Lets take a different example, crocodiles and alligators, african and indian elephants, they cannot interbreed.

If they can't interbreed, perhaps at one time the elephants could. If they never could interbreed like the lions and tigers do, then they would be of different kinds.

Did you give up on the ark and its size being large enough to hold all the animals? My post 124 shows a more accurate size/dimensions that you used.
 
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If they can't interbreed, perhaps at one time the elephants could.

A koala, is of a different genus than kangaroo. They are different kinds of animals. There are over 300 species, yet your list runs around 460 total animals (230) species.

Pardon the language.

How is your list defining these animals? I guess thats really all I can ask.
 
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-57

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here is a list of roughly 300 genus of marsupial.
List of monotremes and marsupials - Wikipedia

A kangaroo is a different kind of animal than a koala. Thats 600 different marsupials. The list is less than 500.

Put more animals on tha ark. i don't really care.
The cubic feet of the ark was app...1,518,750 cubic feet. The total animals were about 16,000...that gives each animal about 95 cubic feet. 95 cubic feet is a lot more space than the 6.75 cubic feet cage i allowed for.

OK, chop the number in half for food storage. Now each animal gets 47.5 cubic feet of room.

Lets do some more number crunching...lets double the number to 32,000 animals. Now each animal has about 47 cubic feet. Divide that in half for food storage and each animal now has about 23 cubic feet of room.
 
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"If they can't interbreed, perhaps at one time the elephants could."

Ok, so, yet another asterix is added to the list. Perhaps animals that cannot breed now, in the past could. An elephant could breed with a tiger? Hey why not?

Its like we just make stuff up as we go. animals are too big? Well make them babies, eggs and adolescence.

Couldnt walk thousands of miles? Well, God could teleport them.

Baby elephant is 3 foot tall at birth? Well, just squeeze them in there, its alright.

Mother giraffe milked herself and sent 3 days of milk in a Tupperware bowl with the babies? Ah why not?
 
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-57

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"If they can't interbreed, perhaps at one time the elephants could."

Ok, so, yet another asterix is added to the list. Perhaps animals that cannot breed now, in the past could. An elephant could breed with a tiger? Hey why not?

Its like we just make stuff up as we go. animals are too big? Well make them babies, eggs and adolescence.

Couldnt walk thousands of miles? Well, God could teleport them.

Baby elephant is 3 foot tall at birth? Well, just squeeze them in there, its alright.

Mother giraffe milked herself and sent 3 days of milk in a Tupperware bowl with the babies? Ah why not?

My previous post shows that even if you double the number of animals..the ark still has room.
You lost the animals won't fit argument. In fact it shows fully grown elephants could have easily fit onto the ark with no need to squeeze them in as you wrongly suggest. You just lost that point.

I see that portion of the debate over with you....unless you can pull something out of your hat.
 
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Put more animals on tha ark. i don't really care.
The cubic feet of the ark was app...1,518,750 cubic feet. The total animals were about 16,000...that gives each animal about 95 cubic feet. 95 cubic feet is a lot more space than the 6.75 cubic feet cage i allowed for.

OK, chop the number in half for food storage. Now each animal gets 47.5 cubic feet of room.

Lets do some more number crunching...lets double the number to 32,000 animals. Now each animal has about 47 cubic feet. Divide that in half for food storage and each animal now has about 23 cubic feet of room.

Sounds good, lets double the animals and lets re do some of this math here.

so we have 50x50x500, thats 1,250,000 sq ft divided by your 32000 animals, thats 39 cubic feet per animal/3 so you have a 13x13x13 foot cell. /4, one quarter of the cell can be for food, the other quarter for waste, the last half for the animal.

So for every animal, you have a 6.5 foot cell.

Now, this ignores the need for things like stairs in between levels. This ignores thickness of the walls, thickness of the floors and cieling. The boat isnt made of paper. This ignores any form of support, or support beams throughout the ark. This ignores any form of walkway in between cells for noah to walk so he can get to every baby animal to feed them with the breast milk supplied by the mother giraffes (3 days worth).

This ignores any need for cleaning supplies. Anyone who knows about babies knows they can poop multiple times a day. So, presumably there will be cleaning supplies.

Bowls, bowls for the food to sit in so the feces doesnt mix with your food, you need some form of divider between the two. Another divider to keep the feces from the animal.

So, all of a sudden this 6.5 foot cell (which is already small as it is), is increasingly shrinking. These animals need water as well. So, add in containers for that water. And these animals need to be able to breath. will there be any ventilation or will they suffocate from poop gas?
 
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-57

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Sounds good, lets double the animals and lets re do some of this math here.

so we have 50x50x500, thats 1,250,000 sq ft divided by your 32000 animals, thats 39 cubic feet per animal/3 so you have a 13x13x13 foot cell. /4, one quarter of the cell can be for food, the other quarter for waste, the last half for the animal.

So for every animal, you have a 6.5 foot cell.

Now, this ignores the need for things like stairs in between levels. This ignores thickness of the walls, thickness of the floors and cieling. The boat isnt made of paper. This ignores any form of support, or support beams throughout the ark. This ignores any form of walkway in between cells for noah to walk so he can get to every baby animal to feed them with the breast milk supplied by the mother giraffes (3 days worth).

This ignores any need for cleaning supplies. Anyone who knows about babies knows they can poop multiple times a day. So, presumably there will be cleaning supplies.

Bowls, bowls for the food to sit in so the feces doesnt mix with your food, you need some form of divider between the two. Another divider to keep the feces from the animal.

So, all of a sudden this 6.5 foot cell (which is already small as it is), is increasingly shrinking. These animals need water as well. So, add in containers for that water. And these animals need to be able to breath. will there be any ventilation or will they suffocate from poop gas?

Well, I'm not really going to argue the size/animal points with you anymore. I've already shown it was possible to hold all of the animals...even when the number of animals was doubled....Time to move on.

At the bottom of your post you brought up ventilation. You asked:
And these animals need to be able to breath. will there be any ventilation or will they suffocate from poop gas?

Once again let me direct you to Woodmorappes book:

The following is from Noahs Ark, A Feasibility Study p41

by John Woodmorappe
It should show you that just the windows alone would have provided adequate ventilation.

What Drove the Ventilation of the Ark? For the quoted rate of five Ark air changes per hour

(Table 7), external wind was more than adequate to effect the required turnover of air in the Ark.

At a wind velocity of merely 5 km/hr (calm), an opening of 0.093 square meters is sufficient to admit 420 cubic meters of fresh air an hour (Gay 1924, p. 255). This changes to only 0.0186 square meters at a wind velocity of 20.9 km/hr (light breeze), and 0.0116 square meters at 37 km/hr (moderate breeze). To put these figures in perspective, we need to remember that the area of the entire Ark window was 146 square meters, and the area of the window of only the short side of the Ark facing the oncoming wind was 10.5 square meters. The total inlet areas for the three different wind velocities, quoted above, are 46.7,18.7, and 9.33 square meters, respectively. It is obvious that only a small fraction of the Ark window needs to be open for adequate ventilation, even at quite low wind velocities.

To investigate this point further, I have determined the minimum wind speed necessary to adequately ventilate the Ark. In this calculation, I have assumed that the Ark was continuously oriented with its long axis approximately collinear with the direction of the wind. I then performed calculations based on the formula in Stowell and Bickert (1993, p. 395) for windows set at different angles to the prevailing wind. The results of my calculations are as follows (in minimum km/hr of wind): 33.5, 13.5. and 9.6. The largest value assumes that the short side of the Ark is perpendicular to the incoming wind, and any wind entering the long-walled Ark windows is negligible. The second value assumes that the short-side windows are closed, and the ventilation is solely from side-glancing wind going past the long sides of the Ark, at an opening effectiveness of 0.25. The last value is for an ideal situation where both the short-side and long-side Ark windows are used simultaneously for ventilation, and the Ark is oriented at an angle to the wind that causes the windows to have opening effectiveness values of 0.6 and 0.25 respectively. In light of the stormy conditions at the start of the Flood, and the continuous wind which was drying the earth afterward (Genesis 8:1), it is certain that there was more than enough wind available for the ventilation of the Ark.

I hope that answers the question about poop gas.
 
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Eryk

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We have to do the math and consider options for ourselves. See my post above.
I must defer to more qualified people, who have put more thought into the technical details than I have.
 
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Well, I'm not really going to argue the size/animal points with you anymore. I've already shown it was possible to hold all of the animals...even when the number of animals was doubled....Time to move on.

At the bottom of your post you brought up ventilation. You asked:


Once again let me direct you to Woodmorappes book:

The following is from Noahs Ark, A Feasibility Study p41

by John Woodmorappe
It should show you that just the windows alone would have provided adequate ventilation.

What Drove the Ventilation of the Ark? For the quoted rate of five Ark air changes per hour

(Table 7), external wind was more than adequate to effect the required turnover of air in the Ark.

At a wind velocity of merely 5 km/hr (calm), an opening of 0.093 square meters is sufficient to admit 420 cubic meters of fresh air an hour (Gay 1924, p. 255). This changes to only 0.0186 square meters at a wind velocity of 20.9 km/hr (light breeze), and 0.0116 square meters at 37 km/hr (moderate breeze). To put these figures in perspective, we need to remember that the area of the entire Ark window was 146 square meters, and the area of the window of only the short side of the Ark facing the oncoming wind was 10.5 square meters. The total inlet areas for the three different wind velocities, quoted above, are 46.7,18.7, and 9.33 square meters, respectively. It is obvious that only a small fraction of the Ark window needs to be open for adequate ventilation, even at quite low wind velocities.

To investigate this point further, I have determined the minimum wind speed necessary to adequately ventilate the Ark. In this calculation, I have assumed that the Ark was continuously oriented with its long axis approximately collinear with the direction of the wind. I then performed calculations based on the formula in Stowell and Bickert (1993, p. 395) for windows set at different angles to the prevailing wind. The results of my calculations are as follows (in minimum km/hr of wind): 33.5, 13.5. and 9.6. The largest value assumes that the short side of the Ark is perpendicular to the incoming wind, and any wind entering the long-walled Ark windows is negligible. The second value assumes that the short-side windows are closed, and the ventilation is solely from side-glancing wind going past the long sides of the Ark, at an opening effectiveness of 0.25. The last value is for an ideal situation where both the short-side and long-side Ark windows are used simultaneously for ventilation, and the Ark is oriented at an angle to the wind that causes the windows to have opening effectiveness values of 0.6 and 0.25 respectively. In light of the stormy conditions at the start of the Flood, and the continuous wind which was drying the earth afterward (Genesis 8:1), it is certain that there was more than enough wind available for the ventilation of the Ark.

I hope that answers the question about poop gas.


Lets add some more animals. I see amphibians were not included on this list of animals. These would not survive a global flood, so lets add them in.

AmphibiaWeb Species Lists

thats another 7500 species x 2 is another 15,000 animals. Even if we were generous and cut that down a bit and said "maybe they could breed before but cannot now, we are still looking at an additional 10,000 animals.

Lets add in some more reptiles as well, we seem to be missing some.
 
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squamata 1938? No no, that number has over 9600 species (nearly 20,000 animals). Even if we were extra generous and cut that number down to 5 thousand additional species (maybe some could interbreed?), youre still looking at an additional 10,000 on top. Thats 20,000 additional animals.
 
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