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Dinosaur footprints destroy flood geology.

juvenissun

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I think you're reaching. But I'll let the geologists answer. My first impression, though, is that you should be looking for a worldwide formation, something akin to the K-T boundary, and that actually looks like a flood formation.

If you know what characterized the K-T boundary, you should know that a global flood does not produce that kind of thing, which can be traced around the world. There is NOT a rock layer created by a single short-duration global incidence that is still continuous all over the world, include the K-T boundary. If you think the global flood is less than 6000 years young, then the chance of finding such layer would even be less, because most of it would probably already be washed away.
 
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Baggins

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If you know what characterized the K-T boundary, you should know that a global flood does not produce that kind of thing, which can be traced around the world.

Aside from the fact that you appear to have misunderstood what Chalnoth is saying, what exactly would you expect to see from a flood layer.

Surely the onus is on you to describe what you believe a global flood that killed all life on earth, bar that on a big boat, would look like.

Then you could go out and look for such a layer. That is what geologists did about 200 years ago.

I can't see how you are helping yourself by throwing out seemingly random geological units helps your case at all.

Chalnoth was not saying the KT layer could be a flood layer, only that is shows an attribute your layer must have in that it is global.

If you are saying that a global flood wouldn't produce a global sedimentary layer, then I believe you have leftthe realms of what even Creationists deem plausible.


There is NOT a rock layer created by a single short-duration global incidence that is still continuous all over the world, include the K-T boundary.

No but the KT boundary exists everywhere where rocks of that age are preserved. Can you show us a chaotic flood deposit bearing a mixture of terrestrial and marina fossils of all types and geological ages?

Or will you keep generating random geological formations for us to debunk?


If you think the global flood is less than 6000 years young, then the chance of finding such layer would even be less because most of it would probably already be washed away.

This is just stupid. What, prey would wash away a global flood layer from say:

The Dead Sea

Death Valley

The Weald of Kent

How could 6000 years of a nice slow process like erosion destroy all evidence of a global flood, and even if it could what is all that 1000's om meters of rock doing there.

And why would we think that a global flood in the last 6000 years was a possibility

You are just getting desperate now. If you live in a world where a thing's absence is proof of is existence then you have sojourned through the looking glass.
 
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mrghost

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beamishboy...Good Post....

I Believe Similar, I have no Facts about Angels except my Testimony That I have seen them with my own Eyes, Proof enough For Me, But I know not You.

I have seen many things that are not in the Realm of Facts, But yet its True.

Before the Big Bang there is no Facts or Data, That does not mean I toss Science by the Wayside or My Belief in God, Jesus and Angels,

In some fields there is not enough Data to base an opinion by facts...That does not mean I throw every concept away...Religion or Science..

I was telling someone 15 years ago that it was possible for the earth's magnetic poles to Change and flip the earth over.
Well now I have read where Science has seen that this has Happened by signs in the Rock structures. Well I saw it with out looking at the rocks...Go Figure...

Have you ever seen or talked to Jesus.
I can talk to my Cousin 2000 miles away on a phone or Computer, and not see them, But know they are there...Without looking for evidence..

There are many Great Bible Historical Records,
There are many Great Scienetific Facts, Great No problem. Use all the Information you can find to Forge you beliefs.

Allot of People Don't Think UFO'S are FACTS untill they see it them selves, I have seen them Several times in my Life. So have Many others. Big Deal, I don't understand why our Goverment continues to try to cover-up such Info.
I don't have a factual picture, But some Do..I have seen those facts also. I believed it before the Facts where found. It's called a hunch a gut feeling. It's a hard table to stand on, But it Drives us to look for answers....

Just because I cant find the evidence I need to support an opinion, Does not mean it is untrue or true. I know what I have seen...I don't need the Facts, sometimes it's a waste of time..Moot Point...Other times Facts are nice to Have. So you can Believe me or Disbelieve me, On What I said, I have seen With my own eyes...I believe Carbon Dating My last Girlfriend was a stiff. Pure Carbon...But I have not seen the Machines used to measure such Fields..
Sometime's Fact are just not necessary. I cant prove salmallia is in that strawberry, But if I get sick I will no it was there. The Facts are not needed for the obvious.
Don't need the Facts about Dino's there Bones are Everywhere. Don't need facts about Air it is almost everywhere, To take Facts to a Extreme or Religion is Called Dogmatic...Hi-Bias.
Lighten up and Grab the best of all Worlds..... Mrghost...:cool:....:thumbsup:
 
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beamishboy

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beamishboy...Good Post....

I Believe Similar, I have no Facts about Angels except my Testimony That I have seen them with my own Eyes, Proof enough For Me, But I know not You.



Allot of People Don't Think UFO'S are FACTS untill they see it them selves, I have seen them Several times in my Life. So have Many others. Big Deal, I don't understand why our Goverment continues to try to cover-up such Info.



What??? You've seen angels and UFOs??? But our eyes sometimes play tricks on us. I've always thought that angels are just an anthropomorphic expression of grandeur. Grand kings on earth have their retinue of servants and so God, being grand, is portrayed as having a string of angels. Just so that we humans can picture him more clearly.

As for UFOs, which planet do you think they come from? I believe there is the possibility of extra-terrestrial intelligence since there are so many earth-like planets in this vast universe but I think they'd be too far for us to have any communication with them and certainly impossible for them to visit us.

Initially, I thought you were around my age (because of your name; hehe) until you said something about something 15 years ago!!! Then I checked to see that you're 56!!! I suppose you have seen much more than I have since you've lived more than 4 times my entire life!!! That's the funny thing about the internet; in real life, you probably wouldn't even talk to me because of the age difference or if you do talk to me, it'd be to ask me where my Dad is so you can talk to him. Hehe.
 
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beamishboy

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We're waiting for the final draft. We're tired of something "new" being found every time someone wants his name in the papers.

For someone who tells science to take a hike and says elsewhere that he has scientists for breakfast, I wonder how it's like to be confronted with geologists when he knows nothing of what they talk about. I suppose he just has to dismiss everything as "stuff and nonsense".

It's just a cop-out. Of course there'll always be new discoveries. So basically, he's saying that he won't reply to anything until there are no new discoveries, knowing full well that that is impossible. In short, he just can't reply but he'll still ask science to take a hike.

I find literalists quite amusing. My aunt who became a fundamentalist after living in America for years (it's always America, isn't it?) had an argument once with a prelate of my church. I can't remember if he was a bishop or an archdeacon but he was someone learned. My aunt was shown two verses in the Bible (I can't remember where) - one said 70,000 soldiers and the other said 7,000 soldiers. Obviously one "0" was either added or removed. But my aunt is a literalist and she would fight to her death that there was no error. She said the 70,000 included foot soldiers and the 7,000 were only cavalry. It was really so amusing. I can't remember the context, but to the best of my knowledge, the early Israelites did not have cavalry. Horses were an abomination to them. They were famous for hamstringing horses. The RSPCA wasn't around to arrest them then.
 
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mrghost

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I will just bet you when the Chips are Down and all Bets in. That He Wont tell Science to take a Hike; If he gets a Awfull Disease or Cancer, Or a Heart or liver Transplant. Or need the New Scientific Medicine to Cure His Hoof in Mouth Disease. That Face, Alfred E. Numan The poster that is always saying Science can take a Hike...that face the character Image was from The Mad Mad Comics from 1960 He was a Clown a Nut, A prankster, A joke. His Claim to fame was his stupid witt and Jokes,He was so stupid you could not keep from laughing at the Idiot...And If You look at His Face real Close, He is in Bad need of Science and Doctors to correct his lopsided Face..I wonder If he uses some of the Wonderful things Science Has made like Computers, Microwaves, TV, Music Records, Plastics, Tires on your Car. The wiring in your Home. He does not even comprehend how much on Science he is already dependant on...So people will kick and whip the Horse they own...

My hand was crushed off 20 years ago by a Forklift, The Good Doctor by the Grace of God and Science Put my Hand Back together, I was on the Table for 14 Hours of Reconstruction and years of Therapy, I now have 95 % use.
With out Science we would be in the dark of night..with no flashlight and battries....
Me I am Thankfull for Gods mercy, good Doctors and Science. With out we would still be rubbing two sticks together.....Mrghost...:cool:...:thumbsup:
 
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AV1611VET

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I will just bet you when the Chips are Down and all Bets in. That He Wont tell Science to take a Hike; If he gets a Awfull Disease or Cancer, Or a Heart or liver Transplant. Or need the New Scientific Medicine to Cure His Hoof in Mouth Disease. That Face, Alfred E. Numan The poster that is always saying Science can take a Hike...that face the character Image was from The Mad Mad Comics from 1960 He was a Clown a Nut, A prankster, A joke. His Claim to fame was his stupid witt and Jokes,He was so stupid you could not keep from laughing at the Idiot...And If You look at His Face real Close, He is in Bad need of Science and Doctors to correct his lopsided Face..I wonder If he uses some of the Wonderful things Science Has made like Computers, Microwaves, TV, Music Records, Plastics, Tires on your Car. The wiring in your Home. He does not even comprehend how much on Science he is already dependant on...So people will kick and whip the Horse they own...

My hand was crushed off 20 years ago by a Forklift, The Good Doctor by the Grace of God and Science Put my Hand Back together, I was on the Table for 14 Hours of Reconstruction and years of Therapy, I now have 95 % use.
With out Science we would be in the dark of night..with no flashlight and battries....
Me I am Thankfull for Gods mercy, good Doctors and Science. With out we would still be rubbing two sticks together.....Mrghost...:cool:...:thumbsup:
And you're quite wrong, my friend. My wife currently has a Jackson-Pratt Drainage Tube sutured into her, and it empties approximately 1 oz of blood and fluid from her every 6 hours. She also has a Titanium clip in her neck keeping her spine from falling apart, and she's on 4 different maintenance drugs. And as for me? I usually refuse medication (except for one), and our family doctor is about to drop me. I've been warned by two different doctors that if I don't go on a certain medication, I won't be around much longer. So, ya --- I'm used to asking God to tell nature to stand aside. And if nature doesn't stand aside --- then auf wiedersehen to this old house.
 
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beamishboy

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I will just bet you when the Chips are Down and all Bets in. That He Wont tell Science to take a Hike; If he gets a Awfull Disease or Cancer, Or a Heart or liver Transplant. Or need the New Scientific Medicine to Cure His Hoof in Mouth Disease. That Face, Alfred E. Numan The poster that is always saying Science can take a Hike...that face the character Image was from The Mad Mad Comics from 1960 He was a Clown a Nut, A prankster, A joke. His Claim to fame was his stupid witt and Jokes,He was so stupid you could not keep from laughing at the Idiot...And If You look at His Face real Close, He is in Bad need of Science and Doctors to correct his lopsided Face..I wonder If he uses some of the Wonderful things Science Has made like Computers, Microwaves, TV, Music Records, Plastics, Tires on your Car. The wiring in your Home. He does not even comprehend how much on Science he is already dependant on...So people will kick and whip the Horse they own...

My hand was crushed off 20 years ago by a Forklift, The Good Doctor by the Grace of God and Science Put my Hand Back together, I was on the Table for 14 Hours of Reconstruction and years of Therapy, I now have 95 % use.
With out Science we would be in the dark of night..with no flashlight and battries....
Me I am Thankfull for Gods mercy, good Doctors and Science. With out we would still be rubbing two sticks together.....Mrghost...:cool:...:thumbsup:

I didn't know the character was from a comic book!!! Maybe AV1611VET is just joking about his no science, only Goddidit idea. Why then would he have his character from a comic book (Mad Comics, you said?). It's always good to hear from older people. Who could have heard that something comes from a 1960 comic book?

I'm glad your hand is all right now.
 
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AV1611VET

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I didn't know the character was from a comic book!!! Maybe AV1611VET is just joking about his no science, only Goddidit idea. Why then would he have his character from a comic book (Mad Comics, you said?). It's always good to hear from older people. Who could have heard that something comes from a 1960 comic book?

I'm glad your hand is all right now.
It's not a "comic book," per se.

By classifying itself as a "magazine," Mad was able to circumvent the Comics Code Authority.

images

 
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thaumaturgy

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And you're quite wrong, my friend. My wife currently has a Jackson-Pratt Drainage Tube sutured into her, and it empties approximately 1 oz of blood and fluid from her every 6 hours. She also has a Titanium clip in her neck keeping her spine from falling apart, and she's on 4 different maintenance drugs. And as for me? I usually refuse medication (except for one), and our family doctor is about to drop me. I've been warned by two different doctors that if I don't go on a certain medication, I won't be around much longer. So, ya --- I'm used to asking God to tell nature to stand aside. And if nature doesn't stand aside --- then auf wiedersehen to this old house.

Jeez o pete, AV, your wife sounds like she's in some bad shape! I hope they are able to do something to stabilize or improve her situation! Yikes.

Sorry to hear that.

But look at what MrGhost talked about, the reconstructive surgery on his hand to regain 95% usage, and while your wife may not be absolutely cured, whatever it is that is afflicting her would have, in a not-too-distant past have been untreatable. Science does a lot. It never claims to do everything.

You want a "final draft", you want all the answers right now. That's fully human of you. We all want that. But part of the discipline of being a scientist is to set aside that natural lust for the answer fast in preference to the methodological approach of nearly asymptotic knowledge.

The thing scientists have to learn to live with you likely could never stand is "ambiguity". We never know if we are ever going to be right about something. The best we can do is watch and wait and try to probe the mystery until we have a workable model to predict how the mystery will respond or help us understand why it makes data in the form it does.

I think I see why you might harbor such a secretive ambivalence or outright disrespect for science (hidden behind a candy coating of "holding it to a higher standard" or "gift from god status"); clearly science hasn't answered all your questions or issues. It hasn't served you well enough.

I work daily with statistics, and I'm not a statistician. But my curiosity and desire to get more acquainted with them has brought me to the brink of my comfort zone:

I want absolutes (like any human), but I understand there's always "error bars". There's always a "Confidence Interval" in which, at best, I can claim 95% confidence that this or that is a reasonable model.

Now, as a human, if I were to be in the tiny little tail of the distribution in getting a horrible disease, all the statistics in the world wouldn't make me feel better. If I was that 0.01% of the population to get some horrible illness, it wouldn't matter to me that 99.98% didn't. When it comes to pain and suffering; Statistics is what happens to others. That's humanity.

We in the sciences make hay while the sun shines and try to realize that while we are all individuals, when you look at human populations en masse we become a giant statistical pool.

That doesn't help you or your wife. It wouldn't help me in a similar situation. But what it does is keep science on track so that the tails of the distribution get smaller or the cures get better. It may not happen in our lifetimes, but if we keep science clearly focused it might happen in the next generation or after that.

Science is in the game for the long haul. It isn't here as a miracle worker. It doesn't drift into town to sell you snake oil. The easy answers are always easy for a reason. The hard ones take time and lots of it.

This doesn't help ease your wife's pain, nor, as I said, would it help ease mine. But I hope that if and when I come to that sort of crossroads I have the strength to realize that I am not going to be thinking like a scientist but like a human and I will hope the scientists will go on thinking like scientists.

Let people attend to people, let scientists attend to science. In the end both needs are served more efficiently.
 
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beamishboy

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Thank you! The Jackson Pratt comes out today! :thumbsup:

And for the record, I read your whole post. :)

But I do hope you'll listen to your doctor's orders and take the two courses of medication. I thought only Jehovah's Witnesses avoid taking medicine.
 
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thaumaturgy

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If you know what characterized the K-T boundary, you should know that a global flood does not produce that kind of thing, which can be traced around the world. There is NOT a rock layer created by a single short-duration global incidence that is still continuous all over the world, include the K-T boundary. If you think the global flood is less than 6000 years young, then the chance of finding such layer would even be less, because most of it would probably already be washed away.

I think he understood the fundamental difference between the K-T boundary and a global flood, but did you understand the similarity? The key is that it is a globally correlatable event showing underwater events at all points.

I know stratigraphy and correlation aren't your "thing", even though any sophomore undergrad knows how this concept works. But do keep track of the points here.

I don't believe the poster wanted an "Iridium anomaly" at the Noachian Flood marker bed, but they do want a globally correlatable underwater event as a bare minimum starting point. Even then it really isn't the fact that it's globally correlatable, but that it marks a significant change, be it in terms of massive, turbid catastrophe, or the elimination of all life across the boundary (remember it would take some amount of time for the life in Noah's ark to repopulate the earth).

Right now what you appear to be doing in your "random wheel of formations" listing is hunting for a reason after the fact to believe the Noachian story. Wouldn't it be more compelling if we stumbled upon this great pile of information in the rocks and the only explanation that made sense was the Noachian Flood story? Rather than t'other way 'round?

This is why it's never a good idea to start from the point of view that some story of unknown origin written in the same form as countless other myths is somehow representative of literal, actual events and then trying to go out and prove the myth.

There's nothing wrong with finding things we thought were myths to be true, but it isn't how science gets done. And, as a geologist, I'm sure you are aware of the history of this great field and where it started from in relation to the Flood mythos...right? You are aware of this history, yes?
 
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AV1611VET

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But I do hope you'll listen to your doctor's orders and take the two courses of medication.

Thank you --- your and Thaum's concerns are noted and very much appreciated. :)
 
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juvenissun

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I don't believe the poster wanted an "Iridium anomaly" at the Noachian Flood marker bed, but they do want a globally correlatable underwater event as a bare minimum starting point. Even then it really isn't the fact that it's globally correlatable, but that it marks a significant change, be it in terms of massive, turbid catastrophe, or the elimination of all life across the boundary (remember it would take some amount of time for the life in Noah's ark to repopulate the earth).

Right now what you appear to be doing in your "random wheel of formations" listing is hunting for a reason after the fact to believe the Noachian story. Wouldn't it be more compelling if we stumbled upon this great pile of information in the rocks and the only explanation that made sense was the Noachian Flood story? Rather than t'other way 'round?

My argument point out one fundamental misconception most people (include you) have regards to the so-called a layer of globally distributed rock formation set by the Flood. There are many reasons to argue that such layer of rock could either be any layer of sedimentary rock, or it simply does not exist any more. The lack of turbidite deposit on abyssal plain does NOT mean there was not a global flood.

So, the debate of a global flood by following this line of thinking is simply going to a dead end.
 
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thaumaturgy

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My argument point out one fundamental misconception most people (include you) have regards to the so-called a layer of globally distributed rock formation set by the Flood. There are many reasons to argue that such layer of rock could either be any layer of sedimentary rock, or it simply does not exist any more. The lack of turbidite deposit on abyssal plain does NOT mean there was not a global flood.

You'll note I did not put such a constraint that it be merely a "turbidite" sequence. I would like to see a globally correlatable formation that shows a preponderance of evidence of massive, nearly (on a geological scale) instantaneous flooding. This would be quite catastrophic and leave many large pieces of evidence.

But you also seem to be "hedging your bets" by now allowing that such a layer might be absent owing to its "recent" nature. Fair enough. So why do you believe it is a real event? Because someone you don't know in a story of unknown provenance TOLD YOU IT WAS TRUE

Again, this is your prerogative to believe in. However you are now left with the flimsiest of evidence to support it. I hope you are not so flippant with the evidence should you ever find yourself in a court of law or ever find yourself presenting data at a national science convention. That would be bad.

So, the debate of a global flood by following this line of thinking is simply going to a dead end.

Indeed. If there is no evidence for said Flood then to hypothesize its existence in preference to a more reasonable and data supported model where no such Noachian Flood occured is little better than just a massive guess for religious purposes and has little to nothing to do with science.

Again, if the Noachian Flood occured then surely there must be some independent evidence for it to make it a compelling hypothesis. Right now all we got is a scrap of paper of unknown origin and looking like countless other myths in human history to "support it".

If that is what you consider "data" in support of an hypothesis I would dearly love to sit in on one of your "GSA presentations". Oh my. I would so love that.

I would camp out outside of the George R. Brown Convention Center for a week ahead of time just to get a front-row seat!
 
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AV1611VET

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Right now all we got is a scrap of paper of unknown origin and looking like countless other myths in human history to "support it".
As long as you think that way, you'll never find it. I love it when a scientist, after reading about the Flood, which wiped out every empire on the face of the earth, wonders to himself, "But why didn't other empires write about the Flood?"
 
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beamishboy

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As long as you think that way, you'll never find it. I love it when a scientist, after reading about the Flood, which wiped out every empire on the face of the earth, wonders to himself, "But why didn't other empires write about the Flood?"

Goodness me! You actually believe in the Flood story and all the animals going into the ark two by two? And don't tell me you believe the Tower of Babel is the origin of all the different languages we have today!!!
 
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AintNoMonkey

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As long as you think that way, you'll never find it.
Remember how you don't know anything about science? Remember how you shouldn't comment about science when you don't know anything about science? Remember?

Remember.


the Flood, which wiped out every empire on the face of the earth
It didn't. We have a continuous timeline from 10,000 years before present to now. Figure out a way to understand this, please.


wonders to himself, "But why didn't other empires write about the Flood?"
He didn't wonder that. We know why they didn't write about it... it didn't happen.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Goodness me! You actually believe in the Flood story and all the animals going into the ark two by two? And don't tell me you believe the Tower of Babel is the origin of all the different languages we have today!!!
Oh, that's nothing. According to him, there was only one supercontinent on the planet until long after Noah's time, which subsequently broke up in today's landmasses without anyone noticing.
 
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