Did Yahshua and his Disciples Abstain from Meat?

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Jesus fed five loaves and two fish to a group of 5,000.
Do fish count as reptiles?


Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:22

(3) He there seeing a great crowd had followed Him, fed all that multitude with five loaves of bread, and twelve baskets of fragments remained over and above.

No mention of fish.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:24

and our Lord, after(1) blessing the five loaves, fed with them five thousand men.

No mention of fish.

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapters 18 to 35 | CARM.org

Arnobius Against the Heathen 1:46

who with [f]ive loaves satisfied five thousand of His followers: and who, lest it might appear to the unbelieving and bard of heart to be an illusion, filled twelve capacious baskets with the fragments that remained?

CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Heathen, Book I (Arnobius)

No mention of fish.

Even Yahshua didn't mention the fish when he brought up that event just a few chapters later:

Matthew 16

5 Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”

8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you d]">[d]have brought no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up?

What is the leaven of the Pharisees? Hmm....It's when they add to the scripture.

Matthew 14:19
New King James Version
Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes

Why didn't Yahshua bless the fish? Why didn't he give the fish to his disciples?
 
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Genesis 9:3 was God's ordinance for Noah. It allowed for eating all animals as food. Prohibition of unclean animals did not come along until the law of Moses.

I already covered this one in post #13


Here is what the CLV says concerning Noah:

(CLV) Gn 9:3
Every moving [animal] that [is] alive, shall be yours for food; as [with the] green herbage, I give to you every[thing].

Every moving animal? I usually trust the CLV; but what about clean and unclean?

The words in brackets were added by CLV and do not appear in the original text; so we are left with the Hebrew word for "moving (רֶמֶשׂ)."

When I plug (רֶמֶשׂ) into Google translate I get the word "insect."

https://translate.google.com/?tl=iw#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=רֶמֶשׂ

I also have a source which claims it to be the word "reptile."

The Hebrew scholars in 300 BC commissioned to translate the Hebrew into Greek translated it thus:

3 καὶ πᾶν ἑρπετόν, ὅ ἐστι ζῶν, ὑμῖν ἔσται εἰς βρῶσιν· ὡς λάχανα χόρτου δέδωκα ὑμῖν τὰ πάντα.

And every reptile (herpaton), which is living, to you will be food, as herbs growing I have given to you all.

Now those were the finest Hebrew scholars that could be found in Jerusalem and they specifically noted unclean animals there in that passage. That ought to settle this once for all.

That post can be found here: I Need Help From Those Who Are Fluent In Hebrew

I have more on this subject; but like I said, this aspect, of this topic, is taking me in multiple directions.
 
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Melchizedek typology of the bloodless sacrifice.

I'm not familiar with this. Can you show me scripture to support this, or any historical references?
 
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He didn't just succeed. In Acts 15 we read that he was the bishop of the church at Jerusalem.
suc·ceed
/səkˈsēd/

verb

1. achieve the desired aim or result

2. take over a throne, inheritance, office, or other position from:
 
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I already covered this one in post #13


Here is what the CLV says concerning Noah:

(CLV) Gn 9:3
Every moving [animal] that [is] alive, shall be yours for food; as [with the] green herbage, I give to you every[thing].

Every moving animal? I usually trust the CLV; but what about clean and unclean?

The words in brackets were added by CLV and do not appear in the original text; so we are left with the Hebrew word for "moving (רֶמֶשׂ)."

When I plug (רֶמֶשׂ) into Google translate I get the word "insect."

https://translate.google.com/?tl=iw#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=רֶמֶשׂ

I also have a source which claims it to be the word "reptile."



That post can be found here: I Need Help From Those Who Are Fluent In Hebrew

I have more on this subject; but like I said, this aspect, of this topic, is taking me in multiple directions.

"Moving" in that usage means "a moving thing that is alive", i.e., an animal. You're going to find Hebrew words with numerous definitions based on usage. It's the reason the old testament has it that insects have four legs. The meaning is "a thing that walks on all fours" even though insects have six legs. You'll find similar in reference to bats and birds, "things that fly". It can also mean an insect.

If you like you can compare your translation to a Jewish translation here:

Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 9 (Parshah Noach)

Or you can use the Christian old testament in the Orthodox study bible.
 
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Al Touthentop

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What is the leaven of the Pharisees? Hmm....It's when they add to the scripture.

Actually, the leaven of the Pharisees is specifically, hypocrisy.

Matthew 14:19
New King James Version
Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes

Why didn't Yahshua bless the fish? Why didn't he give the fish to his disciples?[/QUOTE]

17 And they said to Him, “We have here only five loaves and two fish.

18 He said, “Bring them here to Me.” 19 Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes.



What is up with you that you take texts outside the scripture as more authoritative than the scripture itself? Irenaeus didn't mention the fish because it was unnecessary. Anyone who read the gospel accounts knew that they also distributed fish that day.

And Jesus blessed all of it and gave it to the disciples and then they distributed it to the crowd. He didn't break the fish, but he did bless it.

In Mark it clearly says they sacrificed a lamb for their Passover meal and you're still beating this dead horse when it is settled without controversy in the scripture itself.
 
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This cannot be found in scripture. Jesus was not a Nazarite (See Samuel) he was a Nazarine. He was also quite famously baptized so he obviously did not have an issue getting in the water.

Nazarene (title)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nazarene is a title applied to Jesus, who, according to the New Testament, grew up in Nazareth,[1] a town in Galilee, now in northern Israel. The word is used to translate two related terms that appear in the Greek New Testament: Nazarēnos (Nazarene) and Nazōraios (Nazorean). The phrases traditionally rendered as "Jesus of Nazareth" can also be translated as "Jesus the Nazarene" or "Jesus the Nazorean",[2] and the title "Nazarene" may have a religious significance instead of denoting a place of origin. Both Nazarene and Nazorean are irregular in Greek and the additional vowel in Nazorean complicates any derivation from Nazareth.[3]

The Gospel of Matthew explains that the title Nazarene is derived from the prophecy "He will be called a Nazorean",[4] but this has no obvious Old Testament source. Some scholars argue that it refers to a passage in the Book of Isaiah,[5] with "Nazarene" a Greek reading of the Hebrew ne·tser (branch), understood as a messianic title.[6] Others point to a passage in the Book of Judges which refers to Samson as a Nazirite, a word that is just one letter off from Nazarene in Greek.[7]

The Greek New Testament uses "Nazarene" six times (Mark, Luke), while "Nazorean" is used 13 times (Matthew, Mark in some manuscripts, Luke, John, Acts). In the Book of Acts, "Nazorean" is used to refer to a follower of Jesus, i.e. a Christian, rather than an inhabitant of a town.[8] "Notzrim" is the modern Hebrew word for Christians (No·tsri, נוֹצְרִי) and one of two words commonly used to mean "Christian" in Syriac (Nasrani) and Arabic (Naṣrānī, نصراني).

Nazarene (title) - Wikipedia

I don't know what to say about all that. That is what Eusebius said. He's not here for me to question him.

I've been looking into these variations for years; and WIKI didn't list all of the variations that I've stumbled upon.
 
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Jesus ate lamb on the night before his crucifixion. You read the scripture on that right?

What scripture? I've never seen that verse in ANY bible. I'm going to have to ask you to quote your source on that one.
 
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Al Touthentop

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I don't know what to say about all that. That is what Eusebius said. He's not here for me to question him.


You ought to read your bible more rather than extrabilblical texts and you'd know what I was talking about. Sampson was a Nazarite as was Samuel. Nazarites never cut their hair or shaved.

If in fact Eusebius said that Jesus never shaved or bathed he didn't get that information from the scripture.
I've been looking into these variations for years; and WIKI didn't list all of the variations that I've stumbled upon.

Stay in the bible. That's where the word of God lives. It doesn't live in wikipedia.
 
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Al Touthentop

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What scripture? I've never seen that verse in ANY bible. I'm going to have to ask you to quote your source on that one.

I've posted the scripture to you twice already.

Mark 14
12 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”
 
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Mark 14
12 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”

This verse is seriously suspect.

First off, Yahshua was executed before the First day of Unleavened Bread. The lamb is to be eaten with matzah after sundown after preparation day. Messiah was in the tomb before anyone ate Passover lamb.

The lamb is slaughtered on preparation day; before Passover.

Yahshua was executed the day after the last supper.

Exodus 12 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
12 Adonai spoke to Moshe and Aharon in the land of Egypt; he said, 2 “You are to begin your calendar with this month; it will be the first month of the year for you. 3 Speak to all the assembly of Isra’el and say, ‘On the tenth day of this month, each man is to take a lamb or kid for his family, one per household — 4 except that if the household is too small for a whole lamb or kid, then he and his next-door neighbor should share one, dividing it in proportion to the number of people eating it. 5 Your animal must be without defect, a male in its first year, and you may choose it from either the sheep or the goats.

6 “‘You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk. 7 They are to take some of the blood and smear it on the two sides and top of the door-frame at the entrance of the house in which they eat it. 8 That night, they are to eat the meat, roasted in the fire; they are to eat it with matzah and maror. 9 Don’t eat it raw or boiled, but roasted in the fire, with its head, the lower parts of its legs and its inner organs. 10 Let nothing of it remain till morning; if any of it does remain, burn it up completely.

11 “‘Here is how you are to eat it: with your belt fastened, your shoes on your feet and your staff in your hand; and you are to eat it hurriedly. It is Adonai’s Pesach [Passover]. 12 For that night, I will pass through the land of Egypt and kill all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both men and animals; and I will execute judgment against all the gods of Egypt; I am Adonai. 13 The blood will serve you as a sign marking the houses where you are; when I see the blood, I will pass over a]">[a] you — when I strike the land of Egypt, the death blow will not strike you.

14 “‘This will be a day for you to remember and celebrate as a festival to Adonai; from generation to generation you are to celebrate it by a perpetual regulation.

15 “‘For seven days you are to eat matzah — on the first day remove the leaven from your houses. For whoever eats hametz [leavened bread] from the first to the seventh day is to be cut off from Isra’el. 16 On the first and seventh days, you are to have an assembly set aside for God. On these days no work is to be done, except what each must do to prepare his food; you may do only that. 17 You are to observe the festival of matzah, for on this very day I brought your divisions out of the land of Egypt. Therefore, you are to observe this day from generation to generation by a perpetual regulation. 18 From the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month until the evening of the twenty-first day, you are to eat matzah. 19 During those seven days, no leaven is to be found in your houses. Whoever eats food with hametz in it is to be cut off from the community of Isra’el — it doesn’t matter whether he is a foreigner or a citizen of the land. 20 Eat nothing with hametz in it. Wherever you live, eat matzah.’”

(v) 21 Then Moshe called for all the leaders of Isra’el and said, “Select and take lambs for your families, and slaughter the Pesach lamb. 22 Take a bunch of hyssop leaves and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and smear it on the two sides and top of the door-frame. Then, none of you is to go out the door of his house until morning. 23 For Adonai will pass through to kill the Egyptians; but when he sees the blood on the top and on the two sides, Adonai will pass over the door and will not allow the Slaughterer to enter your houses and kill you. 24 You are to observe this as a law, you and your descendants forever.

25 “When you come to the land which Adonai will give you, as he has promised, you are to observe this ceremony. 26 When your children ask you, ‘What do you mean by this ceremony?’ 27 say, ‘It is the sacrifice of Adonai’s Pesach [Passover], because [Adonai] passed over the houses of the people of Isra’el in Egypt, when he killed the Egyptians but spared our houses.’” The people of Isra’el bowed their heads and worshipped. 28 Then the people of Isra’el went and did as Adonai had ordered Moshe and Aharon — that is what they did.

(vi) 29 At midnight Adonai killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh sitting on his throne to the firstborn of the prisoner in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of livestock. 30 Pharaoh got up in the night, he, all his servants and all the Egyptians; and there was horrendous wailing in Egypt; for there wasn’t a single house without someone dead in it. 31 He summoned Moshe and Aharon by night and said, “Up and leave my people, both you and the people of Isra’el; and go, serve Adonai as you said. 32 Take both your flocks and your herds, as you said; and get out of here! But bless me, too.” 33 The Egyptians pressed to send the people out of the land quickly, because they said, “Otherwise we’ll all be dead!”

34 The people took their dough before it had become leavened and wrapped their kneading bowls in their clothes on their shoulders. 35 The people of Isra’el had done what Moshe had said — they had asked the Egyptians to give them silver and gold jewelry and clothing; 36 and Adonai had made the Egyptians so favorably disposed toward the people that they had let them have whatever they requested. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

37 The people of Isra’el traveled from Ra‘amses to Sukkot, some six hundred thousand men on foot, not counting children. 38 A mixed crowd also went up with them, as well as livestock in large numbers, both flocks and herds. 39 They baked matzah loaves from the dough they had brought out of Egypt, since it was unleavened; because they had been driven out of Egypt without time to prepare supplies for themselves.

40 The time the people of Isra’el lived in Egypt was 430 years. 41 At the end of 430 years to the day, all the divisions of Adonai left the land of Egypt. 42 This was a night when Adonai kept vigil to bring them out of the land of Egypt, and this same night continues to be a night when Adonai keeps vigil for all the people of Isra’el through all their generations.

43 Adonai said to Moshe and Aharon, “This is the regulation for the Pesach lamb: no foreigner is to eat it. 44 But if anyone has a slave he bought for money, when you have circumcised him, he may eat it. 45 Neither a traveler nor a hired servant may eat it. 46 It is to be eaten in one house. You are not to take any of the meat outside the house, and you are not to break any of its bones. 47 The whole community of Isra’el is to keep it. 48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe Adonai’s Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. 49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you.”

50 All the people of Isra’el did just as Adonai had ordered Moshe and Aharon. 51 On that very day, Adonai brought the people of Isra’el out of the land of Egypt by their divisions.
 
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Except they weren't. They participated in all the Jewish feasts which involved the sacrifice of animals and eating of those same animals.

Rachel Elior offers some very interesting insights about who lived at Qumran; and who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls. She presents strong evidence that it was the Zadok Priesthood that was in exile from the Temple.

This dissertation last for about an hour and a half; but I was riveted to her scholarly revelations. I learned much from this dissertation; but it left me with even yet more questions. Again, I see strong evidence that John the Baptist was Baptizing if not at Qumran, then very close to it. As that area is hostile desert; it's quite possible that he lived there. His father was Zadok. John was Zadok. Yahshua was Zadok.


 
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Al Touthentop

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This verse is seriously suspect.

First off, Yahshua was executed before the First day of Unleavened Bread.

No he wasn't as every gospel account attests and your quoted passage does not refute this in the slightest.

Why do you not accept the words of the New Testament?
 
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No he wasn't as every gospel account attests and your quoted passage does not refute this in the slightest.

Why do you not accept the words of the New Testament?

Why do you not accept the words of the Gospel of John nor the Torah?

(CLV) Jn 18:28
They are, then, leading Yahshua from Caiaphas into the pretorium. Now it was morning, and they did not enter into the pretorium lest they may be defiled, but may be eating the passover.

(CLV) Jn 19:14
Now it was the preparation of the Passover (It's still the 14th of Abib. Pesach, the First day of Unleavened Bread, begins at sundown, the 15th of Abib.); the hour was about the third. And he is saying to the Jews, "Lo! your king!"

(CLV) Jn 19:15
Yet they clamor then, "Away! Away! Crucify him!" Pilate is saying to them, "Shall I crucify your king?" The chief priests answered, "Not king have we except Caesar!"
 
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I agree with all the above but that still doesn't lead to the point you were making. You were quoting a passage that suggested that God never instituted animal sacrifice in the first place! And well that it basically implies that Yahweh is essentially the Gnostic Demiurge. Which does not surprise me, seeing how you are using the Gospel of the Ebionites as a source!

I put my trust in YHWH.

(CLV) Jer 8:8
How can you say, We are wise, And the law of Yahweh is with us? Surely, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made a falsehood.

Surely you don't believe that Jeremiah is speaking evil of our heavenly Father?

Are you familiar with the JEPD Theory?
 
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Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Mar_14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luk_22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Luk_22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luk_22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Christ ate the meat of fish and Lamb.
 
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Luk_22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

(CLV) Lk 22:15
And He said to them, "With yearning I yearn to be eating this passover with you before My suffering.

(CLV) Lk 22:16
For I am saying to you that under no circumstances may I be eating of it till it may be fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
 
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(CLV) Lk 22:16
For I am saying to you that under no circumstances may I be eating of it till it may be fulfilled in the kingdom of God."

That's not what the verse says.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

He will eat the Passover at that time but will not eat anymore of this lamb until a fulfillment in the future. It's the last time he will eat of the Passover lamb.
 
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If Jesus did not eat the lamb, he would have been violating the Law.

(Numbers 9:10-13)

"... observe the Passover to the LORD. 'In the second month on the fourteenth day at twilight, they shall observe it; they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 'They shall leave none of it until morning, nor break a bone of it; according to all the statute of the Passover they shall observe it. 'But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and yet neglects to observe the Passover, that person shall then be cut off from his people, for he did not present the offering of the LORD at its appointed time. That man will bear his sin."
 
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If Jesus did not eat the lamb, he would have been violating the Law.

(Numbers 9:10-13)

"... observe the Passover to the LORD. 'In the second month on the fourteenth day at twilight, they shall observe it; they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 'They shall leave none of it until morning, nor break a bone of it; according to all the statute of the Passover they shall observe it. 'But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and yet neglects to observe the Passover, that person shall then be cut off from his people, for he did not present the offering of the LORD at its appointed time. That man will bear his sin."

Can you explain how Yahshua ate the Passover, before he was executed on Abib 14, Preparation day, before Passover which began on Abib 15?

How would that not be violating the law?
 
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