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Did Yahshua and his Disciples Abstain from Meat?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by HARK!, Feb 16, 2020.

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  1. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    This short video provides some evidence to support that possibility. I have been researching this subject; and I have found much more evidence than this video presents. Some of the arguments that I have reviewed are weak; but even the weak arguments, could be valid arguments. I have found some flawed evidence in this video; but so far, as I have seen this evidence is only flawed by semantics. Again, this video is just a brief overview of this subject. I'm left torn between observing the Moedim according to the tradition of the Torah, or from following the message of the Prophets, Yahshua, and his disciples. I look forward to those in this community who are interested in seeking out the truth in this matter.

     
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  2. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Can you give us the high points of the video?
     
  3. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Well, one of the biggies, is from Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 2.23:

    4. James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of James.

    5. He was holy from his mother's womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, and he did not use the bath.

    6. He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel, in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God, and asking forgiveness for the people.

    CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book II (Eusebius)

    Now it would stand to reason; that if James, brother of Yahshua was raised vegetarian; that his parents were vegetarian; and they would have raised Yahshua the same way.

    If you look at the title of this thread; there is a question mark at the end. I'm asking a question, not making a proclamation.

    I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm struggling with this subject; and I'm on the fence. I'm reviewing the evidence. If you are not interested in reviewing the evidence; then you might not be able to help those who are.

    I've abstained from meat for over a month now. I won't eat it again until I have conviction that I'm making the right decision. I've been praying about this throughout my days. With Passover approaching quickly; I feel the need to get this matter resolved. I've been researching this subject, until I start to get a mental lock, as often as I can.
     
  4. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All I know is what I read about the Essene sect of Judaism. Evidently many or most of them were vegetarians and it is believed by many that Jesus was either part of the Essene community or sympathized with them, as he did not criticize them like he did the other two Jewish groups. Hence, it is quite possible that Jesus and his followers were vegetarians, but cannot be certain.
     
  5. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    Jesus, being brought up a Jew, would have eat and drank like Jews of the day.

    There is no evidence he did not drink wine or didnt eat meat.
     
  6. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    My research has brought me to the understanding that the Qumran community were not Essenes; but were more likely the Zadokite priesthood, which had been practically purged from the temple. John the Baptist was baptizing near Qumran.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    His brother James was brought up as a Jew.
     
  8. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    It wasnt his 'blood' brother though.

    Brother, sister etc was a widely used term which could mean a close friend etc etc.

    Good info here:

    Did Jesus Christ have biological siblings?

    Jesus grew up alone in the family. James was appointed one of the Apostles (Mark 3:13-19). James and Joses (Joseph) were the sons of Mary wife of Cleophas (Mark 15:40). Mary wife of Cleophas is described in John 19:25 as sister of Mary Mother of Jesus. James the Lesser was the son of Alphaeus (Luke 6:15). James the Greater and John were the sons of Zebedee (Matthew 20:20). James wrote an Epistle in which he said, “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ…(James 1:1).
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  9. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I am interested in reviewing the evidence. But the answer may be found by asking if you or the creator of the video consider fish to be meat. Some do, some don't.
     
  10. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Jesus supplied fish for the resurrection meal.

    He clearly drank wine.
     
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  11. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Lamb is part of the Last Supper meal. right?

    Genesis 9:4The one thing you must not eat is meat with blood still in it; I forbid this because the life is in the blood.

    Isaiah 25:6 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV)
    A Banquet for All Peoples
    6 On this mountain
    the Lord of Armies will prepare for all peoples
    a banquet of rich food,
    a banquet of aged wines,
    with the best cuts of meat,
    and with the finest wines

    1 Corinthians 10:25You are free to eat anything sold in the meat market, without asking any questions because of your conscience.

    Mark 14:12[ Jesus Eats the Passover Meal with His Disciples ] On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the day the lambs for the Passover meal were killed, Jesus' disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and get the Passover meal ready for you?”
     
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  12. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    I skimmed the video. I disagree it conflates Christian and Jewish fasting with vegetarianism. It also bases a lot of its arguments from the Gospel of the Ebionites.


    Jesus and the disciples were not vegetarians like modern vegetarians. You could not be one in ancient Israel, celebrating Passover was commanded and that meant eating meat at least once a year! Not to mention some of the sin offerings etc. in the OT that mandated a meat sacrifice and its consumption.


    I also think it should be pointed out that people in the past, before the days of refrigeration ate much less meat than today. Unless you lived in a big city, where you could but small cuts of meat at a butcher, your average peasant, farmer etc. had to wait for some special occasion to have lamb, or beef because it meant slaughtering a whole animal and consuming it before it spoiled. Not only this, but grain based products like breads and porridge were the easiest fast food to have on hand, as far something that was both readily available and fast to cook and cheap.
     
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  13. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus fed five loaves and two fish to a group of 5,000.

    After the resurrection Jesus was roasting fish on a fire for breakfast.
    John 21:9 (WEB) So when they got out on the land, they saw a fire of coals there, with fish and bread laid on it. 10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish which you have just caught.” 11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land, full of one hundred fifty-three great fish. Even though there were so many, the net wasn’t torn. 12 Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast!” None of the disciples dared inquire of him, “Who are you?” knowing that it was the Lord. 13 Then Jesus came and took the bread, gave it to them, and the fish likewise. 14 This is now the third time that Jesus was revealed to his disciples after he had risen from the dead.
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Good question; and I've been looking into this. The evidence is pulling me in many directions; and i don't have a clear answer for this.

    I will leave you with this:

    Here is what the CLV says concerning Noah:

    (CLV) Gn 9:3
    Every moving [animal] that [is] alive, shall be yours for food; as [with the] green herbage, I give to you every[thing].

    Every moving animal? I usually trust the CLV; but what about clean and unclean?

    The words in brackets were added by CLV and do not appear in the original text; so we are left with the Hebrew word for "moving (רֶמֶשׂ)."

    When I plug (רֶמֶשׂ) into Google translate I get the word "insect."

    https://translate.google.com/?tl=iw#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=רֶמֶשׂ

    I also have a source which claims it to be the word "reptile."

    That post can be found here: I Need Help From Those Who Are Fluent In Hebrew

    I have more on this subject; but like I said, this aspect, of this topic, is taking me in multiple directions.
     
  15. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 9:3 was God's ordinance for Noah. It allowed for eating all animals as food. Prohibition of unclean animals did not come along until the law of Moses.
     
  16. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    Eusebius was around at the same time as Constantine, the man who corrupted the early church and introduced all sorts of pagan practices. Eusebius is a regarded by many as a flunky for Constantine, so I give him no credence on the subject.
    "Holy from his mother's womb". Given that Jesus's ministry was largely rejected by his brothers, including James, this is plain stupid.
    Again, laughable nonsense. The temple was in the hands of people who hated the early church especially the apostles. Do you imagine they gave James a special pass/
    Most of this is nonsense, you are being misled away from the things that truly count before God.
    Romans14v17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
     
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  17. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I did find what was claimed here:

    "
    James outside of the Scriptures
    Traditions respecting James the Less are to be found in many extra-canonical documents, especially Josephus (Antiq., XX, ix, 1), the "Gospel according to the Hebrews" (St. Jerome, Illustrious Men 2), Hegesippus (Eusebius, Church History II.23), the pseudo-Clementine Homilies (Ep. of Peter) and Recognitions (I, 72, 73), Clement of Alexandria (Hypot., vi, quoted by Eusebius, Church History II.1). The universal testimony of Christian antiquity is entirely in accordance with the information derived from the canonical books as to the fact that James was Bishop of the Church of Jerusalem. Hegesippus, a Jewish Christian, who lived about the middle of the second century, relates (and his narrative is highly probable) that James was called the "Just", that he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor ate animal food, that no razor touched his head, that he did not anoint himself or make use of the bath, and lastly that he was put to death by the Jews. The account of his death given by Josephus is somewhat different. Later traditions deserve less attention."CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. James the Less

    There really is no reason to believe that the others did not eat Lamb.

    "
    Paschal Lamb.

    The setting aside, slaughtering, and eating of the paschal lamb was introductory to the celebration of the festival. According to Ex. xii. this rite was instituted by Moses in Egypt, in anticipation of the judgment about to be visited on Pharaoh and his people. On the tenth of the month—ever thereafter to be the first month of the year—the Hebrews were to take a lamb for each household, "without blemish, a male of the first year," "from the sheep or from the goats." Kept until the fourteenth day, this lamb was killed "at eve" ("at the going down of the sun"; Deut. xvi. 6), the blood being sprinkled by means of a "bunch of hyssop" (Ex. xii. 22) on the two door-posts and on the lintels of the houses wherein the Hebrews assembled to eat the lamb during this night, denominated the [​IMG] ("night of the vigils unto Yhwh"; Ex. xii. 42, Hebr.; see, however, R. V. and margin). Prepared for the impending journey, with loins girded, shoes on their feet, and staves in their hands, they were to eat "in haste." The lamb was to be roasted at the fire, not boiled in water, or left raw; its head, legs, and inwards were not to be removed, and it was to be eaten with bitter herbs and unleavened bread. Nothing was to be left until the morning; anything that remained was to be burned (Ex. xii.)." PASSOVER - JewishEncyclopedia.com PASSOVER - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
  18. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I don't see anything that I highlighted about James in the Bible.
    BibleGateway - Keyword Search: james

    John 19:30 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
    30 When he tasted the wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then he bowed his head and died.

    Matthew 26:27
    Then he took a cup of wine, thanked God for it, and gave it to them. He said, “Each one of you drink some of it.

    Mark 14:23Then he took a cup of wine, thanked God for it, and gave it to them. They all drank from the cup.

    was James part of the all there?

    Luke 22:20In the same way, after supper, Jesus took the cup of wine and said, “This wine represents the new agreement from God to his people. It will begin when my blood is poured out for you.”
     
  19. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    I didn't skim the video. I payed attention to every word; and like I said in the OP I caught some flaws; but this was not one of them. They raised important questions regarding your position.

    Here are some verses from the Prophets:

    New International Version
    But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a person, and whoever offers a lamb is like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense is like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and they delight in their abominations;

    (CLV) Jer 7:22
    For in the day I brought them forth from the land of Egypt I did not speak to your fathers and did not instruct them concerning matters of ascent offerings and sacrifices;


    Amos 5:25
    “Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
    forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?
    26 You have lifted up the shrine of your king,
    the pedestal of your idols,
    the star of your god
    which you made for yourselves.
     
  20. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    who made the video?
     
  21. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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