Did God predestine the Fall?

[Hammster]

I would think that a baby has to be born first, before it can start getting nourishment and growing from breast milk.

I can’t see how that possibly answers my question.

 

[Hammster]

Correct. I suppose we could qualify that to especially after we first repent/get saved/come to Him. Then we have His spirit, and so His word grows our faith.

You could qualify it that way. But you’d need to remove Romans 10.

 

[Hammster]

The idea is that He wanted the folks in Israel to come to Him...to choose Him, and they refused and resisted. The idea is not that He gathers them like it or lump it!

Instead of trying to find the idea, how about taking the text at face value?

 

[mark kennedy]

I can’t see how that possibly answers my question.

He doesn't like to answer questions about the gospel.

 

[mark kennedy]

Instead of trying to find the idea, how about taking the text at face value?

He doesn't like talking about that either, or Jesus...oh and he doesn't do expositions.

 

[JM]

We have an early equivocation in the thread:

1. God plans and ensures the Fall of man
2. God allows man to fall even though he could have prevented it

Do you see that those are not the same thing? Similarly, I could create a robot to murder Julius Caesar or I could see Brutus on his way to murder Caesar and do nothing to prevent him. Those are different acts in both a philosophical and moral sense.

Let's not play games. God planned the fall, He decreed it and is glorified for it. In the first place sinners are saved by Christ alone and God the Father's wrath is satisfied when sinners are punished.


GOD PREDETERMINED THE FALL OF ADAM:

this fell under his decree, as all things do that come to pass in the world; there is nothing comes to pass without his determining will, “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?” (Lam. 3:37), nothing is done, or can be done, God not willing it should be done: that the fall of Adam was by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God is certain; because the sufferings and death of Christ, by which is the redemption of men from that sin, and all others, were ordained before the foundation of the world; and which must have been precarious and uncertain, if Adam’s fall was not by a like decree (Acts 2:23; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20), but then neither the foreknowledge of God, nor any decree of God, laid Adam under a necessity of sinning; it is true, there arises from hence a necessity of immutability, that is, that the things God has decreed should unchangeably come to pass, but not a necessity of co-action or force; as Judas and the Jews sinned freely, the one in betraying, the other in putting Christ to death; so Adam sinned freely, without force or compulsion, notwithstanding any decree of God concerning him; so that these do not make God at all chargeable with being the author of his sin; he and he alone was the author of it. - John Gill
​

Yours in the Lord who saves to the uttermost.

jm

 

[bling]

No.

I said:
That is what I am saying, but that does not keep humans from making limited autonomous free will choices?
and you said: "No."


I do not understand the "no" answer since it was not a yes and no question.

Do you feel God can know man's future and man can still make autonomous free will choices?

 

[dad]

You mean the General call of the Gospel.

Why would there be any call is people were destined for hell regardless?

 

[dad]

You do mean the Holy Spirit right?

Right.

 

[dad]

I said:
That is what I am saying, but that does not keep humans from making limited autonomous free will choices?
and you said: "No."


I do not understand the "no" answer since it was not a yes and no question.

Do you feel God can know man's future and man can still make autonomous free will choices?

Yes.

 

[dad]

I can’t see how that possibly answers my question.

So, the faith growing thing comes after we are born again.

 

[dad]

You could qualify it that way. But you’d need to remove Romans 10.

Humbly asking as He commanded to receive His free gift is not works of righteousness.

 

[dad]

Instead of trying to find the idea, how about taking the text at face value?

How about taking the picture Jesus gave us for what it is? He doesn't gather us hens against our will, hence, we see that the hens in former days also had a choice.

Why is having a God given choice to reject Jesus or accept Him that results in our eternal fate something you do not seem to agree with???

For those who didn't know that Jesus offers anyone eternal life, anyone at all that chooses to come to Him, here is Scripture.
Rev 22:17b ...And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[redleghunter]

Why would there be any call is people were destined for hell regardless?

Dad we are all condemned according to Romans 5.

Unless one who is dead in their trespasses is made alive in Christ.

 

[dad]

Dad we are all condemned according to Romans 5.

Unless one who is dead in their trespasses is made alive in Christ.

That is why Jesus died, red. We now have a choice not to be condemned any more. That is what we call the gospel, or good news.

 

[Hammster]

So, the faith growing thing comes after we are born again.

You are the only one talking about sanctification. Everyone else is talking about regeneration and justification.

 

[Hammster]

Humbly asking as He commanded to receive His free gift is not works of righteousness.

Where are we commanded to ask to receive His free gift?

 

[Hammster]

How about taking the picture Jesus gave us for what it is? He doesn't gather us hens against our will, hence, we see that the hens in former days also had a choice.

Why is having a God given choice to reject Jesus or accept Him that results in our eternal fate something you do not seem to agree with???

For those who didn't know that Jesus offers anyone eternal life, anyone at all that chooses to come to Him, here is Scripture.
Rev 22:17b ...And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The text doesn’t talk about gathering hens.

This is what I’m talking about. You cannot, or will not, stick to the text.

 

[mark kennedy]

You are the only one talking about sanctification. Everyone else is talking about regeneration and justification.

Yea, he doesn't like that. If you bring up the gospel he doesn't seem to have the patience. Not sure why.

 

[mark kennedy]

How about taking the picture Jesus gave us for what it is? He doesn't gather us hens against our will, hence, we see that the hens in former days also had a choice.

Why is having a God given choice to reject Jesus or accept Him that results in our eternal fate something you do not seem to agree with???

For those who didn't know that Jesus offers anyone eternal life, anyone at all that chooses to come to Him, here is Scripture.
Rev 22:17b ...And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You are the only one in this conversation that thinks God saves us against our will, you couldn't be more wrong. It's not that your will is meaningless, it just is not what saves you. You can't have a will that lines up with the will of God without being born again. Yes, at conversion you have some kind of a choice when it comes to believing what you heard. I've never encountered a Calvinist that denies that. You need a new will, a new heart, a new nature. It's called the gospel and new birth, surly you have heard of it.