Did evolution create consciousness?

[Stormy]

Originally posted by auswiq
oh, well actually havn't yet joined mensa, although I certainly do qualify, as I've been assessed recently to be in top 1%. One psychologist who specifies in giftedness, told me that its likely that I'm above that, so curiosity might get me retested. Hopefully on a test with different 'ceiling' say, the stanford-binet this time.

Don't get a big head. My IQ average is 168 and I classify myself as an idiot. There is so much that we can not even imagine let alone grasp.

 

[kaotic]

There is so much that we can not even imagine let alone grasp.

I have never get that! I can imagine anything. And I think anyone can grasp anything. As I said I have never understood that meaning completely.

 

[auswiq]

Originally posted by Stormy
Don't get a big head. My IQ average is 168 and I classify myself as an idiot. There is so much that we can not even imagine let alone grasp.

'Ey! Dont jump to conclusions. What I've stated is objective fact, not subjective opinion. After an autistic type of childhood; dropping outa HS and years of struggling to bring to light what I so strongly felt was true potential, in face of many a putdown by others, including those who were qualified to have known better; at last, I'm beginning to be vindicated and about time too!

Besides, why call yourself an idiot, in face of the reality of being so intellectually blessed, a genuine divinely bestowed gift from the Creator, a gift not everyone is fortunate to be the beneficiary; and just because you like me and all, dont know it all. I dont know all either but I'm no idiot thats for sure!

Anyway, was my response to your question about intelligence, et al helpful or not?

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by unworthyone
I've read some rather LARGE articles about how our "state of mind" rose up from evolution etc...

The thing is they all point to assumption. Is there any evidence for this ever happening? (Besides the fact that we are all conscious)

If there is evidence how did they get it?

Or is this even something that the theory of evolution cares about? Do they claim ignorance on it?

Oh, evolution cares about it.  Some sources for the data are:

1. GM Edelman and G Tononi, A Universe of Consciousness How Matter Becomes Imagination, Basic Books, 2000.  Argue that a Darwinian model can be applied to neural activity to explain consciousness. In this "neural Darwinism", selective mechanisms on various scales arise, favoring certain neuronal firing patterns over others.
2. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/294/5544/1030  Review of memory and learning as chemical processes.
3. JG Nicholls, AR Martin, BG Wallace, PA Fuchs From Neuron to Brain, 2002
1.  N Williams, Evolutionary psychologists look for roots of cognition. Science 275 (3 Jan): 29-30, 1997.
2.  R Plomin and JC DeFries, The genetics of cognitive abilities and disabilities.  Scientific American, 278: 62-69, May 1998.
3.  G Vogel, DNA suggests cultural traits affect whale's evolution.Science 282: 1616, Nov. 27, 1998. Primary article is  H Whitehead,Cultural selection and genetic diversity in matrilineal whales.  Science282: 1708-1710, Nov. 27, 1998.  Mothers teach survival traits to youngsters. Culture affecting genetic evolution.  Only species besides human where this is demonstrated.
4.  Octoplay. Discover 19: 28, Nov. 1998.  Indications that octopi engage in "play" behavior.
5.  M Cartmill, The gift of gab. Discover 19: 56- 64, Nov. 1998. Summary of research into the evolution of language.  "the ability to create symbols ... is potentially present in any animal that can learn to interpret natural signs, such as a trail of footprints. Syntax, meanwhile, everges from the abstract thought required for a social life." So, language is an offshoot of intelligence.
6.  M Roach, Why men kill.  Discover 19: 100-108, Dec. 1998. Summarizes study of Amazon tribe where half the males are murdered. looking for the evolutionary roots of violence.
8.  MD Hauser, Games primates play.  Discover 19: 48-57, Sept. 1998. Discusses behavior among primates.  Humans not so unique.
9.  E Linden, Can animals think? Time 154: 57-60, Sept 6, 1999.
10. MD Hauser, Morals, apes, and us. Discover  21: 50-55, Feb. 2000.Summarizes some studies in monkeys to determine if they have "moral" behavior.
11. CD Frith and U Frith, Interacting minds -- a biological basis, Science 286:1692-1695, Nov. 26, 1999.  Describes studies locating ability to "mentalize" -- understand and manipulate other people's mental states. "These studies indicate that the ability to mentalize has evolved from a system for representing actions."
12. DS Woodruff and NG Jablonski and G Chaplin, Chimp cultural diversity. Science 285: 836-837, Aug. 6, 1999.  Social tolerance evolved among hominids.
12a. A Whiten C Boesch, The cultures of chimpanzees. Scientific American 284: 60-67, Jan. 2001. Another "unique" feature of humans turns out not to be unique.
13. DVM Bishop, An innate basis for language?  Science 286: 2283-2284, Dec. 17, 1999.  www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/286/5448/2283  "The newborn brain is not a homogenous mass. Differentiation of sensory areas is established early, and some parts of the brain are implicated in language learning more than others.  It is not surprising that genetic disorders affecting the brain can yield characteristic behavioral phenotypes."
14.WH Calvin and D Bickerton, Lingua ex Machina, Reconciliing Darwin and Chomsky with the Human Brain.  MIT Press, 2000.  Human language ability arose from Darwinian conversion of function.

 

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by auswiq
oh, well actually havn't yet joined mensa, although I certainly do qualify, as I've been assessed recently to be in top 1%. One psychologist who specifies in giftedness, told me that its likely that I'm above that, so curiosity might get me retested. Hopefully on a test with different 'ceiling' say, the stanford-binet this time.

Hmm. You never could have deduced that from the quality of your posts.

 

[auswiq]

Originally posted by lucaspa
Hmm. You never could have deduced that from the quality of your posts.

oh?  care to clarify?  Obviously a reason behind the statement,and being a person attracted to the 'whys' and 'wherewithals', Im naturally made curious as to this one.

 

[auswiq]

Originally posted by auswiq
oh?  care to clarify?  Obviously a reason behind the statement,and being a person attracted to the 'whys' and 'wherewithals', Im naturally made curious as to this one.

 

Well, Im waiting for a response L. To be honest with you, if you have problems about my mental capabilities, I would appreciate you having that out with one to one via PRIVATE MESSAGE - NOT infront of everyone here in public - my formal edu. due to circumstances beyond my control at the time ( an ex-autistic child) most likely is far less than many here, but that does not deter me from having the guts to throw my hat into the ring amongst many clever and astute persons here. Hasn't stopped me from being a successfiul autodidact.  I think an apology is due!

 

[auswiq]

Originally posted by seebs
A bit of each. Science has yet to come up with a good formal definition of what "consciousness" is. By any meaningful standard, humans aren't conscious when they're born; it takes a while for the "mind" to form.

Oh, in that case, I'm curious about evidence of the unborn foetus being able to respond to stimuli, e.g, even music. Surely, that is consciousness, albeit, then in it's very primal premature state.

 

 

[Morat]

Oh, in that case, I'm curious about evidence of the unborn foetus being able to respond to stimuli, e.g, even music. Surely, that is consciousness, albeit, then in it's very primal premature state.

References please. Primary would be best. And, frankly, sponges react to stimuli. Bacteria react to stimuli. Reacting to stimuli, in fact, is one of the characteristics of all living things.

From the lowliest bacterium, to each individual cell in your body, all the way up to the collection of cells that makes up the common toad.

 

[auswiq]

Originally posted by Morat
References please.......

 

References?  There's a reference in the Bible that says ' Seek, and you shall find'.  I found one source, on the web - an excellent one. (there's plenty more there too). If I found it, then I know you can.  I am currently not permitted to present links here as my post# is not at prescribed level for said permission to take effect - yet.

 

[kaotic]

Originally posted by auswiq
 

References?  There's a reference in the Bible that says ' Seek, and you shall find'.  I found one source, on the web - an excellent one. (there's plenty more there too). If I found it, then I know you can.  I am currently not permitted to present links here as my post# is not at prescribed level for said permission to take effect - yet.

All you have to do is not show the http://www.

just show it like aol.com.

 

[auswiq]

Originally posted by Morat
And, frankly, sponges react to stimuli. Bacteria react to stimuli. Reacting to stimuli, in fact, is one of the characteristics of all living things.

From the lowliest bacterium, to each individual cell in your body, all the way up to the collection of cells that makes up the common toad.

.and plastic, like bags, et al respond to flames by rapidly shrinking to a tight, molten blob, for example.

 

 

[sulphur]

That is a classic. Why not ask children why fire is not aliving thing because it has so many things in common with organic materials

 

[Corey]

Originally posted by unworthyone
I've read some rather LARGE articles about how our "state of mind" rose up from evolution etc...

The thing is they all point to assumption. Is there any evidence for this ever happening? (Besides the fact that we are all conscious)

If there is evidence how did they get it?

And if not, how to they plan on obtaining it?

Or is this even something that the theory of evolution cares about? Do they claim ignorance on it?

There are several hypotheses that coincide. One hypothesis about the function of consciousness is that it is a goal-oriented system that reconstructs itself continually as it evaluates goal-directed behavior. A separate hypothesis about its evolutionary origins is that it arose as an error-checking mechanism for social interactions. Unfortunately, I'm at work and my references for consciousness are buried several boxes deep in storage at home.

 

[sulphur]

Just name the subject specifcally and I'm sure we can find it

 

[Corey]

I'm not sure you would find it online. The references are academic journal articles.

If you (or your library) has access, try PsycInfo. Just type in "consciousness."

 

[ocean]

"Conciousness" and "state of mind" are just functions of the brain. Of course consciousness evolved.

 

[Morat]

References? There's a reference in the Bible that says ' Seek, and you shall find'. I found one source, on the web - an excellent one. (there's plenty more there too). If I found it, then I know you can. I am currently not permitted to present links here as my post# is not at prescribed level for said permission to take effect - yet.

Sorry, I don't do other people's work for them. As has been noted, you can post links. And failing that, simply state "Journal X, page such and such" which works just as well. Or even quote from a website.

So many ways to do it.

.and plastic, like bags, et al respond to flames by rapidly shrinking to a tight, molten blob, for example.

Actually, that would be a simple chemical reaction. Reaction to stimuli isn't "burning". Reaction to stimuli would be, however, "moving away from the hot thing".

Sorry. Once more, fetuses show no signs of conciousness until late in pregnancy. Since they lack most of the hardware required to be concious until what, the 24th week or so, I'd be a little amazed if they could be concious.

About as amazed as if I saw Windows 2000 running without a computer.

 

[auswiq]

Originally posted by Morat
Sorry, I don't do other people's work for them. As has been noted, you can post links. And failing that, simply state "Journal X, page such and such" which works just as well. Or even quote from a website.

So many ways to do it.

Not asking anyone to do my work for me - never have done.