Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[Leaf473]

letters do not come and go from scripture.. as it turns out.

Okay... Then none of the letters of all of the laws about tithing have passed from the law. Why, then, do you not keep all of those letters?

Are you saying that just because something hasn't passed away from the law, that doesn't mean we still need to do it?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[Leaf473]

so when the Earth is destroyed in Rev 20 and 21 then the law against taking God's name in vain will be deleted in your view???


since I keep posting the fact that animal sacrifice and offerings end in Heb 10 and you keep re-posting as if I don't post anything - I assume you simply do not want to answer the question above...

The answer to your first question is No. No laws are deleted, they are fulfilled.

You say that some laws have ended. Is "ended" different from "passed away from the law?"

Peace be with you.

 

[Leaf473]

since I keep posting the fact that animal sacrifice and offerings end in Heb 10 and you keep re-posting as if I don't post anything - I assume you simply do not want to answer the question above...

When you read this passage,
For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

do you understand it as
"Nothing will pass away from the law, but a whole lot of things will have ended"?

Peace be with you.

 

[Leaf473]

So your claim is that as soon as the Nazarine Carpenter paid tithe - then the law to not take God's name in vain ended along with all of God's Word all His commands?

No, as soon as heaven and Earth pass away and/or all is accomplished. Then the entire law will have been fulfilled. That would include both tithing laws and laws about God's name.

The entire law remains or ends as a unit.

Peace be with you.

 

[Leaf473]

since we all see the Earth still here - your post above appears to affirm the obvious fact that "do not take God's name in vain" still remains

Yes! As well as the letters of the tithing laws and animal sacrifices.

Or,
Heaven and Earth passing away is an idiom meaning a major shift,
and/or
all is accomplished.

If at least one of the above two things have happened, then the entire law has passed away as a unit.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[Leaf473]

As a stated a number of pages ago - Heb 7 ended the Levitical priesthood at the cross - but that does not delete the command to not take God's name in vain.

I assumed that Passed away was the same as Ended.

Are you using them to mean different things?

 

[Leaf473]

How can I help you to see the oft repeated response at this point?

I don't recall seeing your answer to this question:

Which of the above two things have happened?

If you said which of the above two things, please give the post number. Thanks!

 

[Leaf473]

I guess thats a starting point but not sure how it can be in principle when it is literally spelled out…

Nehemiah 9:13
“You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.

The law is a generic term, it could be God’s Ten Commandment, it could mean the law of Moses the context of scripture tells us what its referring to if one allows the scripture to interpret itself. When God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant it is all the law Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16 Jeremiah 31:33. The New Covenant goes on to explain itself, if allowed what changed. Jesus came to magnify the law Isaiah 42:21 and we see an example of how Jesus did so right from the Ten Commandments Matthew 5:19-30. Jesus often taught on the Ten Commandments and kept all of them as our example to follow. John 15:10, 1 John 2:6

The difference in the covenant is God made individual covenants with Abraham and God made a covenant with an entire Nation of Israel. Abraham still kept God’s commandments and laws. Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

God’s Ten Commandments are in heaven Revelation 11:19 and where there is no law there is no transgression. Romans 4:15 Lucifer was a covering cherub meaning He watched over the Ten Commandments and he sinned from the beginning which is why he was thrown out of heaven. Adam and Eve sinned which is what separated man from God. It’s not wise to use the same arguments that separated Lucifer in heaven and separated man from God and think there will be a different outcome, when God gives us plenty of warnings in His Word both written and through example.

It would be nice if you posted scripture to back up your ideas. The Sabbath was from the very beginning. Genesis 2:1-3. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 and man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 right before the first Sabbath spent in the presence of God. God said the Sabbath is a sign between God and His people Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20 God only has one people and there is only one God. I don’t know about you, but I want to be one of God’s people and obeying the Sabbath brings the Lord delight Isaiah 58:13-14 because God said it is the day to keep holy Exodus 20:8 and the day we are to honor God. There will never be a time when God is okay with us breaking His commandments until the very end of time. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15 God’s law is what points out sin 1 John 3:4 and Paul quotes right from the Ten to define sin. Romans 7:7. The Sabbath is not an isolated commandment, its part of God’s holy commandments that God placed together and is the work of God alone Exodus 32:16 written by God’s finger Exodus 31:18 and we are told we cannot add or subtract from God‘s commandments Deut 4:2 or His Word. Proverbs 30:5-6 I think we need to trust the scriptures because it is a lamp to our feet. Psalms 119:105. There is someone out there who wants us to believe that we do not need to keep God’s commandments and delights in deceiving the whole world Revelation 12:17. I know which side of the battle I want to be on.

________

The law is a generic term, it could be God’s Ten Commandment, it could mean the law of Moses the context of scripture tells us what its referring to if one allows the scripture to interpret itself.

Hi SB! Feel free not to answer this, if you wish

What law is being referred to in Matthew 5:18? Is it the Ten commandments only, or some other set of laws?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[BobRyan]

From: #808
============ begin

Leaf473 said:

Do you not say that the letters of the tithing commandments that relate to the Levites have passed away from the law? Which of the above two things have happened?

As a stated a number of pages ago - Heb 7 ended the Levitical priesthood at the cross - but that does not delete the command to not take God's name in vain.

I didn't see that he actually answered them, so I'm basically asking them again.

How can I help you to see the oft repeated response at this point?
========================== end

I don't recall seeing your answer to this question:

Step 1 -- try reading the post you say you are responding to. There we find your question "answered again"

As a stated a number of pages ago - Heb 7 ended the Levitical priesthood at the cross - but that does not delete the command to not take God's name in vain.

I assumed that Passed away was the same as Ended.

Is that helping you in some way to get around to answering the question?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
So your claim is that as soon as the Nazarine Carpenter paid tithe - then the law to not take God's name in vain ended along with all of God's Word all His commands?

No, as soon as heaven and Earth pass away and/or all is accomplished.

Heaven and Earth are still here - but Heb 10 and 7 remind us that the laws for animal sacrifice and offering end at the cross - so also levitical priesthood.

Is this helping you because in 1 Cor 7:19 we still have "circumcision does not matter - but what matters (STILL) is KEEPING the Commandments of God" so that in Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" -- still.

Then the entire law will have been fulfilled. That would include both tithing laws and laws about God's name.

So when we see Earth vanish then you claim the command against taking God's name in vain will vanish? Seriously?

Or do you say that already happened as soon at the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???

 

[BobRyan]

Okay... Then none of the letters of all of the laws about tithing have passed from the law.

I am fine with that. And do you also agree that it is still a sin to take God's name in vain?

(you know, the easy and obvious part that almost every denomination on Earth and Christian on this board will freely admit to)

Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?​

​

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???​

​

2. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?​

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

God tells Cain that SIN is crouching at his door in Gen 4 regarding his contemplation of anger and murder against his brother. God does not say "nothing is sin until Sinai".

In other words - it was "always a sin" to take God's name in vain and that is not changed in the least by the fact that thousands of years after Adam and Eve - there is Sinai and a nation-covenant with Israel about making them a special people and a great nation.

no wonder then that

• The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
• The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
• C.H. Spurgeon
• D.L. Moody
• Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
• and almost every major Christian denomination

admits to this key and easy to see Bible detail.

 

[expos4ever]

The entire law remains or ends as a unit.

It appears that Paul agrees - he repeatedly refers to "the law": he does not subdivide into parts.

Let's be clear: if one has agenda to promote that some parts of the law are retained, one strategy, not justifiable of course, is to arbitrarily impose categories of law to evade what I believe Scripture clearly teaches: the law is effectively a unitary whole that served to mark out the Jew as distinct from his pagan neighbour.

 

[BobRyan]

Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?​

​

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???​

​

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?​

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

Like this.. Every day alike, feast or no feast, every morning and evening the daily sacrifices and the ashes hauled out and more wood brought to keep burning on the alter, lamps trimmed etc.
1.Mt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Do you regard that as an answer to of the above questions? The fact that pastors and in the OT priests work on Sabbath?

 

[BobRyan]

It appears that Paul agrees - he repeatedly refers to "the law": he does not subdivide into parts.

1 Cor 7:19 "circumcision does not matter - but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

The details matter.

Heb 10 informs us that animal sacrifice and offering laws end at the cross - yet Eph 6:1-2 reminds us that the moral laws such as the TEN in the case of Eph 6 - still apply

 

[BobRyan]

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?


Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

This is getting very obvious for the unbiased objective reader so far.

God tells Cain that SIN is crouching at his door in Gen 4 regarding his contemplation of anger and murder against his brother. God does not say "nothing is sin until Sinai".

In other words - it was "always a sin" to take God's name in vain and that is not changed in the least by the fact that thousands of years after Adam and Eve - there is Sinai and a nation-covenant with Israel about making them a special people and a great nation.

no wonder then that

• The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
• The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
• C.H. Spurgeon
• D.L. Moody
• Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
• and almost every major Christian denomination

admits to this key and easy to see Bible detail.

 

[expos4ever]

So when we see Earth vanish then you claim the command against taking God's name in vain will vanish? Seriously?

A misleading line of argument frequently deployed by those who believe the law remains in force. The careful reader will know that just because a written commandment to not take the Lord's name in vain has passed away, this does not mean it is acceptable to now do so.

 

[BobRyan]

Leaf473 said:

No, as soon as heaven and Earth pass away and/or all is accomplished.
Then the entire law will have been fulfilled. That would include both tithing laws and laws about God's name.

Heaven and Earth are still here - but Heb 10 and 7 remind us that the laws for animal sacrifice and offering end at the cross - so also levitical priesthood.

Is this helping you because in 1 Cor 7:19 we still have "circumcision does not matter - but what matters (STILL) is KEEPING the Commandments of God" so that in Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" -- still.

So when we see Earth vanish then you claim the command against taking God's name in vain will vanish? Seriously?

Or do you say that already happened as soon at the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???

A misleading line of argument frequently deployed by those who believe the law remains in force.

hmm I guess you are talking about every major Christian denomination on planet Earth just then.

God tells Cain that SIN is crouching at his door in Gen 4 regarding his contemplation of anger and murder against his brother. God does not say "nothing is sin until Sinai".

In other words - it was "always a sin" to take God's name in vain and that is not changed in the least by the fact that thousands of years after Adam and Eve - there is Sinai and a nation-covenant with Israel about making them a special people and a great nation.

no wonder then that (when it comes to affirming the TEN) we have

• The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
• The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
• C.H. Spurgeon
• D.L. Moody
• Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
• and almost every major Christian denomination

as examples of admitting to this key and easy to see Bible detail.

 

[ralliann]

Do you regard that as an answer to of the above questions? The fact that pastors and in the OT priests work on Sabbath?

Yes I do. The priests were keeping Gods commandments given to them alone to do.
It is the same idea here, just speaking to a different group. But the same idea in both.

Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes I do. The priests were keeping Gods commandments given to them alone to do.

So in your proposal --
1. priests could not take God's name in vain, worship false gods or murder - but the rest of Israel and all mankind were free to sin??
2. Or you are saying that priests and pastors can promote the Gospel - even on Sabbath without breaking it because it is a provision in the Sabbath to allow for all that is necessary to have a "holy convocation" including the priests work of circumcision in the temple -- and all that includes Bible teaching?

If #2 - then how is that an answer to any of the following?

=====================================================
BobRyan said:

Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

 

[Leaf473]

And in Ex 20:1 God is the one that freed Israel from Egypt --- therefore "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7.... just for Jews in your POV?

This is the "easy part" that almost all Christian denominations are on record as affirming






Heb 10 - animal sacrifices.


Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?​

​

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???​

​

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?​

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

________

Heb 10 - animal sacrifices.

Great! Then which of these two things happened?
Heaven and Earth have passed away,
Or
All things are accomplished / fulfilled.

Peace be with you.