Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[Leaf473]

Yes, all of God’s Word is the law and prophets, which if we follow correctly will guide us in all Truth.

Amen!
And... Did the laws about animal sacrifices pass from the law?

 

[Leaf473]

Seriously? We just went through this. I’m sorry Leaf you don’t seem to want to progress in God’s Word. You seem happy going in circles so I am going to bow out and please lets just leave it as we will need to agree to disagree and praise God this gets sorted out soon enough and I wish you nothing but the best and hope you find the Truth to God’s Word like we should all be seeking.

Unfortunately, we did not actually go through it.

(My post that you quoted says timing, but it's supposed to say tithing )

I had asked @BobRyan two simple, and in my opinion, direct questions:

Do you not say that the letters of the tithing commandments that relate to the Levites have passed away from the law? Which of the above two things have happened?

I didn't see that he actually answered them, so I'm basically asking them again.

It's not going in circles, it's trying to actually keep the train of thought going in a straight line to a conclusion.

 

[Leaf473]

Seriously? We just went through this and agreed we keep at least one of the Ten Commandments and we don’t sacrifice animals because the blood of Jesus can cleanse of us all sins according to the Word of God. At some point we should want to progress in God’s Word and staying in circles on things you seem to understand doesn’t make sense for me to continue in this discussion when there are lots of people earnestly seeking to understand God’s Word. I am going to bow out and please lets just leave it as we will need to agree to disagree and praise God this gets sorted out soon enough and I wish you nothing but the best and hope you find the Truth to God’s Word like we should all be seeking.

__________

I am going to bow out and please lets just leave it as we will need to agree to disagree...

It's fine if you don't want to respond anymore, and peace be with you, my sister in Christ!

**************
If you change your mind, two simple questions for you, or anyone else who wants to respond:

Are animal sacrifices part of the law here?
18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Matthew 5 NKJV

If yes, have those parts about animal sacrifices passed from the law?

 

[BobRyan]

Okay... But did the letters of some of the tithing commandments pass away from the law?

letters do not come and go from scripture.. as it turns out.

I say that Heb 7 is true when it says the levitical priesthood ended. But Heb 7 does not say that this also ended the commandment to not take God's name in vain and in Eph 6:1-2 Paul affirms the ten flat out. As Jesus does in Matt 19 as Paul does in Rom 13 etc.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" rather than "what matters is that the commandments of God were deleted as soon as Christ paid tithe".

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, all of the laws God has ever given man are moral as in moral

Until you read Heb 10 regarding animal sacrifice and offerings ended - but not the command "do not take God's name in vain" ended. (As almost everyone can see).

And until you read 1 Cor 7:19 where circumcision is contrasted with the "Commandments of God"
the point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

No. I'm saying that as soon as
Heaven and Earth have passed away
and/or
All is fulfilled/accomplished,
then things can pass away from the Law.

so when the Earth is destroyed in Rev 20 and 21 then the law against taking God's name in vain will be deleted in your view???

But I'm curious about your input on that, Bob, my man.

Has any part of the law passed away from the law?

since I keep posting the fact that animal sacrifice and offerings end in Heb 10 and you keep re-posting as if I don't post anything - I assume you simply do not want to answer the question above...

 

[BobRyan]

And since you are posting this on a "all Laws of God ended" thread - do you mean to say that if the law on Tithing changes even one iota - that the command against taking God's name in vain must have been deleted???

Again, not deleted, but fulfilled.

So your claim is that as soon as the Nazarine Carpenter paid tithe - then the law to not take God's name in vain ended along with all of God's Word all His commands?

Seriously?

No. I'm saying that as soon as
Heaven and Earth have passed away

since we all see the Earth still here - your post above appears to affirm the obvious fact that "do not take God's name in vain" still remains

 

[BobRyan]

Leaf473 said:

Do you not say that the letters of the tithing commandments that relate to the Levites have passed away from the law? Which of the above two things have happened?

As a stated a number of pages ago - Heb 7 ended the Levitical priesthood at the cross - but that does not delete the command to not take God's name in vain.

I didn't see that he actually answered them, so I'm basically asking them again.

How can I help you to see the oft repeated response at this point?

 

[Bob S]

But not the moral laws of God which in the case of Sabbath begin in Gen 2:1-3 according to Ex 20:11 and have no ritual either in Gen 2 or in Ex 20:8-11. And as Is 66:23 applies for all eternity to all mankind in the New Earth.

According to Isaiah 65 man only lives to over 100 and according to Jesus, man does not have a wife. Sabbath will become a lonely place huh.

Your speculatin on that point does not appear to be inline with the texts just referenced above.

Actually Bob, it doesn't matter when the Sabbath began, it was a ceremonial event. Why is it you cannot tell the difference between a moral law and a ceremonial event? Moral laws pertain to how we treat God and our fellow man. Sabbath had nothing to do with any harm we might commit against God or our fellow man. It was made for them to honor something that happened in the past. In Israel's case it was their release from bondage and the remembrance of creation. As with all the other commands of the ten, Sabbath was desecrated and became the ministry of death. If you really believe the Sabbath has to be KEPT, and do not do as commanded it becomes the ministry of death to you too. Is58:
13“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the Lord,

 

[ralliann]

I think it’s important to note that God separated His laws from the very beginning. Many want to lump all laws and commandments as one, when God did not.

We agree in principle here. I think unfortunately this is where our agreement ends.

This is an important distinction because once we get to the New Testament we see what exactly ended when Christ became our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins we won’t make the mistake of claiming “all laws” ended, when they did not.

I do not think We need to go beyond this one verse to look at New covenant teaching according to the law.
First you say God did separate his laws from the beginning. Gal talks about covenants which are separated by 430 years. Further there was law which was added. Adding something means it was not covenant law prior to it being added.

Genesis 26:5
because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Abraham obeyed covenant law in existence at a minimum 430 years prior to covenant law through Moses for Israel. The Horeb (in Moab) Covenant law was additional law which obviously was not before that time.
Each covenant had a sign Circumcision from Abraham
Sabbath a sign for added law from Moses.


Horeb/Sinai covenant not made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or the 12 Patriarchs.
Deut
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

 

[ralliann]

As a stated a number of pages ago - Heb 7 ended the Levitical priesthood at the cross - but that does not delete the command to not take God's name in vain.

How can I help you to see the oft repeated response at this point?

Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We agree in principle here. I think unfortunately this is where our agreement ends.

I guess thats a starting point but not sure how it can be in principle when it is literally spelled out…

Nehemiah 9:13
“You came down also on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven, And gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments.

I do not think We need to go beyond this one verse to look at New covenant teaching according to the law.
First you say God did separate his laws from the beginning. Gal talks about covenants which are separated by 430 years. Further there was law which was added. Adding something means it was not covenant law prior to it being added.

The law is a generic term, it could be God’s Ten Commandment, it could mean the law of Moses the context of scripture tells us what its referring to if one allows the scripture to interpret itself. When God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant it is all the law Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16 Jeremiah 31:33. The New Covenant goes on to explain itself, if allowed what changed. Jesus came to magnify the law Isaiah 42:21 and we see an example of how Jesus did so right from the Ten Commandments Matthew 5:19-30. Jesus often taught on the Ten Commandments and kept all of them as our example to follow. John 15:10, 1 John 2:6

Abraham obeyed covenant law in existence at a minimum 430 years prior to covenant law through Moses for Israel. The Horeb (in Moab) Covenant law was additional law which obviously was not before that time.
Each covenant had a sign Circumcision from Abraham

The difference in the covenant is God made individual covenants with Abraham and God made a covenant with an entire Nation of Israel. Abraham still kept God’s commandments and laws. Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

God’s Ten Commandments are in heaven Revelation 11:19 and where there is no law there is no transgression. Romans 4:15 Lucifer was a covering cherub meaning He watched over the Ten Commandments and he sinned from the beginning which is why he was thrown out of heaven. Adam and Eve sinned which is what separated man from God. It’s not wise to use the same arguments that separated Lucifer in heaven and separated man from God and think there will be a different outcome, when God gives us plenty of warnings in His Word both written and through example.

Sabbath a sign for added law from Moses.

It would be nice if you posted scripture to back up your ideas. The Sabbath was from the very beginning. Genesis 2:1-3. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 and man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 right before the first Sabbath spent in the presence of God. God said the Sabbath is a sign between God and His people Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20 God only has one people and there is only one God. I don’t know about you, but I want to be one of God’s people and obeying the Sabbath brings the Lord delight Isaiah 58:13-14 because God said it is the day to keep holy Exodus 20:8 and the day we are to honor God. There will never be a time when God is okay with us breaking His commandments until the very end of time. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14-15 God’s law is what points out sin 1 John 3:4 and Paul quotes right from the Ten to define sin. Romans 7:7. The Sabbath is not an isolated commandment, its part of God’s holy commandments that God placed together and is the work of God alone Exodus 32:16 written by God’s finger Exodus 31:18 and we are told we cannot add or subtract from God‘s commandments Deut 4:2 or His Word. Proverbs 30:5-6 I think we need to trust the scriptures because it is a lamp to our feet. Psalms 119:105. There is someone out there who wants us to believe that we do not need to keep God’s commandments and delights in deceiving the whole world Revelation 12:17. I know which side of the battle I want to be on.

 

[BobRyan]

Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

God tells Cain that SIN is crouching at his door in Gen 4 regarding his contemplation of anger and murder against his brother. God does not say "nothing is sin until Sinai".

In other words - it was "always a sin" to take God's name in vain and that is not changed in the least by the fact that thousands of years after Adam and Eve - there is Sinai and a nation-covenant with Israel about making them a special people and a great nation.

no wonder then that

• The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
• The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
• C.H. Spurgeon
• D.L. Moody
• Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
• and almost every major Christian denomination

admits to this key and easy to see Bible detail.

 

[BobRyan]

But not the moral laws of God which in the case of Sabbath begin in Gen 2:1-3 according to Ex 20:11 and have no ritual either in Gen 2 or in Ex 20:8-11. And as Is 66:23 applies for all eternity to all mankind in the New Earth.

According to Isaiah 65 man only lives to over 100

Some do live that long -- did you want a thread on that topic?

In the texts you are not referencing above we see the Sabbath details you are not responding to.

 

[ralliann]

It would be nice if you posted scripture to back up your ideas.

I did

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I did

Can you please post the scripture that says:

ralliann said:
Sabbath a sign for added law from Moses.

I didn’t see it

 

[ralliann]

Can you please post the scripture that says:

ralliann said:
Sabbath a sign for added law from Moses.

I didn’t see it

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. {holy: Heb. holiness }
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. {holy: Heb. holiness }
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Exodus 31:18 Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Does not say anything about an added law. The Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments personally written by God. Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:16 Exodus 20 Breaking the Sabbath commandment is no different than breaking any of God’s commandments. James 2:10-12

It says if you keep the Sabbath it is a sign between God and His people does not say a sign for an added law.

Much like Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20 if you keep the Sabbath its a sign between God and His people. One God, one people. Israel is just a name God gave His people. If you are in Christ there is no Jew or gentile, just God’s people. Hebrews 8:10 Gal 3:26-29

It’s surprising to me to be honest why there is so much resisitence on God’s holy Sabbath day considering the blessings you receive when you keep God’s Sabbath commanemnt. A special sign between you and God. Who wouldn’t want the Lord being delighted in us when we keep the Sabbath and He blesses us. Isaiah 58:13-14 An appointment with God every Sabbath day to spend time in His spiritual rest so He can bless us through His sanctifying power Ezekiel 20:12 becuase we cannot sanctify ourselves, we do so through the Truth of God’s Word John 17:17.

 

[BobRyan]

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep:

And in Ex 20:1 God is the one that freed Israel from Egypt --- therefore "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7.... just for Jews in your POV?

This is the "easy part" that almost all Christian denominations are on record as affirming

God tells Cain that SIN is crouching at his door in Gen 4 regarding his contemplation of anger and murder against his brother. God does not say "nothing is sin until Sinai".

In other words - it was "always a sin" to take God's name in vain and that is not changed in the least by the fact that thousands of years after Adam and Eve - there is Sinai and a nation-covenant with Israel about making them a special people and a great nation.

no wonder then that

• The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
• The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
• C.H. Spurgeon
• D.L. Moody
• Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
• and almost every major Christian denomination

admits to this key and easy to see Bible detail.

Leaf473 said:
But I'm curious about your input on that, Bob, my man.

Has any part of the law passed away from the law?

Heb 10 - animal sacrifices.


Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?​

​

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???​

​

3. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?​

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

 

[ralliann]

And in Ex 20:1 God is the one that freed Israel from Egypt --- therefore "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7.... just for Jews in your POV?

This is the "easy part" that almost all Christian denominations are on record as affirming

Heb 10 - animal sacrifices.


Now the questions you are not answering with a direct yes or no.

1. 1 Cor 7:19 - did the Holy Spirit make a mistake to say "circumcision does not matter...what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" when in your view either they both matter or they both do not matter and there can be no such distinction between them?​

Like this.. Every day alike, feast or no feast, every morning and evening the daily sacrifices and the ashes hauled out and more wood brought to keep burning on the alter, lamps trimmed etc.
1.Mt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

​

2. Ex 20:7 did the command to not take God's name in vain get deleted/abolished/ended/cease-to-apply (use what you wish) as soon as the Carpenter from Nazareth paid tithe???​

​

2. Do you ever wonder why it is that even those opposing the Sabbath in the quoted section above - do not join in such short sighted "solutions"?​

Here we have our differences distilled down to 3 short questions to assist the reader of this thread.

As for 1 and 2 They are really the same question. Why keep 9 of the ten?

1-2 Things that defiled the nations...

Lev 18 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

Pretty clear the "things" the nations did that was prohibited to them, that prohibition WAS RETAINED for Israel. Same standard for both in those things.

I also invite all to look at "the things" those nations did which they were defiled them and the land. Not a one concerned resting / not resting every seventh day.

Many of the things that were done by the nations were in their worship of their gods.