Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[Leaf473]

You're welcome to your opinion, but I prefer the detailed scriptures God left us in regards to foods and healthy eating. Leviticus 11, Isaiah 66:17

Yes, we each have our own opinion about what the scriptures say.

And that's fine, when it comes to the law:
Titus 3
But avoid... disputes about the law...

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, we each have our own opinion about what the scriptures say.

And that's fine, when it comes to the law:
Titus 3
But avoid... disputes about the law...

I am assuming you think Titus 3 also applies to you?

Personally I don't see us disputing the law, more reasoning with the scriptures, but if you see it that way, than by all means I would not debate it further. God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

I am assuming you think Titus 3 also applies to you?

Personally I don't see us disputing the law, more reasoning with the scriptures, but if you see it that way, than by all means I would not debate it further. God bless.

Well, I don't have to see it that way, if you are being edified.

What's the difference between reasoning from the scriptures about the law and disputing about the law?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well, I don't have to see it that way, if you are being edified.

What's the difference between reasoning from the scriptures about the law and disputing about the law?

It's always edifying to teach and talk about the Word of God.

What do you think the difference is? Since we have discussed laws for two years now I am assuming you would think there's a difference since you quoted Titus 3.

 

[Leaf473]

It's always edifying to teach and talk about the Word of God.

What do you think the difference is? Since we have discussed laws for two years now I am assuming you would think there's a difference since you quoted Titus 3.

I don't think there is much of a difference. It's something I've become increasingly concerned about.

I suppose reasoning from the scriptures in the sense of a friendly discussion would be fine.

But if you say things like

You're welcome to your opinion, but I prefer the detailed scriptures God left us in regards to foods and healthy eating. Leviticus 11, Isaiah 66:17

that's not really very friendly imo. The subtext is that you are following the scriptures while all I have is an opinion.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't think there is much of a difference. It's something I've become increasingly concerned about.

I suppose reasoning from the scriptures in the sense of a friendly discussion would be fine.

But if you say things like

that's not really very friendly imo. The subtext is that you are following the scriptures while all I have is an opinion.

Sorry, you took it that way, and it was not meant to be unfriendly, just speaking from a place of truth, many place opinions as scripture, and we should all be careful of doing so, myself included God went into great detail on the foods He said are clean versus unclean, this is not an opinion Leviticus 11. We are told in scripture what the Lord thinks about those who eat unclean foods at His Second Coming Isaiah 66:17 that again is not an opinion. Just like the Sabbath is a commandment of God, not an opinion Exodus 20:8-11. So when we place opinions or use scripture out of context that is not what the scriptures teach, would you rather have someone point that out now or wait until its too late. Jesus gives us lots of warning in the scriptures and some don't believe those warnings are true. I am one who thinks the warnings Jesus gives are true and sharing scripture is always out of love and nothing else. If you don't see it that way thats okay, we are all entitled to our opinions, but our opinions should never try to trump the Word of God. God bless

 

[Leaf473]

Sorry, you took it that way, and it was not meant to be unfriendly, just speaking from a place of truth. God went into great detail on the foods He said are clean versus unclean that is a fact Leviticus 11, not an opinion. We are told in scripture what the Lord thinks about those who eat unclean foods at His Second Coming Isaiah 66:17 that again is not an opinion, but a fact. Just like the Sabbath is a commandment of God, not an opinion Exodus 20:8-11. So when we place opinions or use scripture out of context that is not what the scriptures teach, would you rather have someone point out the scripture now or wait until its took late. Jesus gives us lots of warning in the scriptures and some don't believe those warnings are true. I am one who thinks the warnings Jesus gives are true and sharing scripture is always out of love and nothing else. If you don't see it that way, that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

I, too, am speaking from a place of truth.

Food will not commend us to God.

I thought we were following the train of thought that it's like a book where we get more details later on.

1 Corinthians 8 is much later than Isaiah 66, and much, much later than Leviticus 11.

So as the train of thought goes, Leviticus 11 gives more details about Genesis 9. In the same way, 1 Corinthians 8 gives us more details about Isaiah 66 and Leviticus 11.

Now, I'm not aware of a scripture that comes after 1 Corinthians 8 that says that food does commend us to God. If you know of such a passage, please post it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I, too, am speaking from a place of truth.

Food will not commend us to God.

I thought we were following the train of thought that it's like a book where we get more details later on.

1 Corinthians 8 is much later than Isaiah 66, and much, much later than Leviticus 11.

So as the train of thought goes, Leviticus 11 gives more details about Genesis 9. In the same way, 1 Corinthians 8 gives us more details about Isaiah 66 and Leviticus 11.

Now, I'm not aware of a scripture that comes after 1 Corinthians 8 that says that food does commend us to God. If you know of such a passage, please post it.

There is no scripture that says we can eat unclean foods including 1 Cor 8.

If you think you are free to eat unclean foods and the warning in Isaiah 66:17 doesn't mean what it says, we have free will. I believe God created us knowing what is best for our bodies and eating something He deems an abomination can't be good for us as shown in Leviticus 11.

Looks like we are going in circles, so I am going to leave it as agree to disagree.

 

[Leaf473]

There is no scripture that says we can eat unclean foods including 1 Cor 8.

If you think you are free to eat unclean foods and the warning in Isaiah 66:17 doesn't mean what it says, we have free will. I believe God created us knowing what is best for our bodies and eating something He deems an abomination can't be good for us as shown in Leviticus 11.

Looks like we are going in circles, so I am going to leave it as agree to disagree.

Well, my sister and friend in Christ, it looks like we do agree that there is no scripture after 1 Corinthians 8 that says that food will commend us to God.

So it looks like we actually have reached a conclusion. The latest details we have is from 1 Corinthians 8.

But "commend" isn't a word we use in everyday speech. Here's two translations that make it clearer imo.

Now food will not improve our relationship with God — we will be neither poorer if we abstain nor richer if we eat.
CJB

Food will not affect our relationship with God. We are no worse off if we eat ⌞that food⌟ and no better off if we don’t.
GW
1 Corinthians 8:8 - Bible Gateway

 

[Leaf473]

Another reference,

e. to bring into one's fellowship or intimacy: τινα τῷ Θεῷ, 1 Corinthians 8:8;

Strong's Greek: 3936. παρίστημι, (paristémi) -- to place beside, to present, stand by, appear

 

[Leaf473]

But fortunately God doesn’t grade us on our diet. We’re neither commended when we clean our plate nor reprimanded when we just can’t stomach it. But God does care when you use your freedom carelessly in a way that leads a fellow believer still vulnerable to those old associations to be thrown off track.
MSG
1 Corinthians 8:8 - Bible Gateway

 

[Ligurian]

Well, 1 Corinthians 8 is an expansion on food:
But food will not commend us to God. For neither, if we don’t eat, are we the worse; nor, if we eat, are we the better.

This overall passage is about meat sacrificed to idols. An idol is an abomination, I think it says somewhere.

It goes on to say that if someone sees you eating in an idol’s temple... Wait, what? It turns out it's okay to eat in an idol's temple.

Here ya go... idols are devils?

1 Corinthians 10:20-27 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. ...[27] If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

1 Corinthians 8:4-10 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one. ...[7] Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. ...[10] For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

Acts of the Apostles 15:19-21 [20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

I don't follow this... but the gentiles do, right?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well, my sister and friend in Christ, it looks like we do agree that there is no scripture after 1 Corinthians 8 that says that food will commend us to God.

So it looks like we actually have reached a conclusion. The latest details we have is from 1 Corinthians 8.

But "commend" isn't a word we use in everyday speech. Here's two translations that make it clearer imo.

Now food will not improve our relationship with God — we will be neither poorer if we abstain nor richer if we eat.
CJB

Food will not affect our relationship with God. We are no worse off if we eat ⌞that food⌟ and no better off if we don’t.
GW
1 Corinthians 8:8 - Bible Gateway

Notice it not once says unclean foods. They were already following the heath guidelines and would know this, but there is a deeper meaning here which @BobRyan already covered Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

 

[Leaf473]

Here ya go... idols are devils?

1 Corinthians 10:20-27 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. ...[27] If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

1 Corinthians 8:4-10 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one. ...[7] Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. ...[10] For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

Acts of the Apostles 15:19-21 [20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

I don't follow this... but the gentiles do, right?

As far as I understand Acts 15, the question the apostles and elders are deciding is should the gentiles be commanded to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

They decide that the answer is no. But then, as now, some people had very strong feelings about idols and food. (If the word usually translated sexual immorality is instead translated temple prostitute, all four rules are about pagan worship practices.)

So they come up with four rules. That, hopefully, would resolve most issues that were causing their brothers and sisters to stumble.

Because by far the biggest issue is not causing your brothers and sisters in Christ to stumble. Today, I'm coming to suspect that a big issue is styles of thinking, concrete or abstract, things like that. Not saying one is better than the other. But two people reading the same Bible passages may come to different conclusions.

So no, I don't keep those four rules, either... even though I'm a gentile by birth.

 

[Leaf473]

Notice it not once says unclean foods. They were already following the heath guidelines and would know this, but there is a deeper meaning here which @BobRyan already covered Jesus prophesied that we would be keeping the Sabbath until He returns in Matthew 24

Yes, I see that it doesn't say unclean foods, or clean foods.

Just that food doesn't improve our relationship with God. If you believe that a person must stop eating bacon in order to receive the Holy Spirit, that sounds like food would improve their relationship with God.

Our brother Bob's post seems to start with the assumption that the gentiles were weak. I don't share that assumption.

 

[Ligurian]

So they come up with four rules. That, hopefully, would resolve most issues that were causing their brothers and sisters to stumble.

What do you do with Revelation 2:14-24?

 

[Leaf473]

Some more thoughts about the law of Moses and what ended at the cross,

The law of Moses is the first five books of the Bible.
Luke 24
He said to them, “This is what I told you, while I was still with you, that all things which are written in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me must be fulfilled.”

When confronted with the question of whether the gentiles should keep the law of Moses, the apostles and elders in Jerusalem said No.

 

[Leaf473]

What do you do with Revelation 2:14-24?

Two possible ways to look at it imo:

The church at Pergamum was generally weak, so they should basically be told just plain stay away from pagan temples.

Or,

"So you also have some who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans likewise."
The teaching of the Nicolaitans was creating a stumbling block for some in Pergamum, just like the counsel of Balaam had created a stumbling block for Israel.

 

[Ligurian]

Two possible ways to look at it imo:

The church at Pergamum was generally weak, so they should basically be told just plain stay away from pagan temples.

Or,

"So you also have some who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans likewise."
The teaching of the Nicolaitans was creating a stumbling block for some in Pergamum, just like the counsel of Balaam had created a stumbling block for Israel.

Revelation 2:12-16 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;[13] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast My name and hast not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you where Satan dwelleth.[14] But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols and to commit fornication.[15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.[16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Revelation 2:20-24 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.[21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not.[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.[23] And I will kill her children with Death, and all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.[24] But unto you I say--and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine--and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Where was Jezebel given space to repent? unless she was in Pergamos, too. And Antipas must have passed the devil's test in Smyrna... there's no Repent being asked of them. The only Repentance for Ephesus required her return to the strength of her first love, after she'd rooted out the false-sent-ones and therefore, stopped trusting her brethren.


But here's the thing. Eating things sacrificed to idols, in the Revelation... fornication is always part of it. And fornication means to commit adultery. And spiritual adultery was the cause of the captivities of the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

So the Revelation belongs to the Gospel of Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

It isn't part of the gospel to the gentiles who can eat in the temple of the idol.

 

[Leaf473]

Revelation 2:12-16 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;[13] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast My name and hast not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you where Satan dwelleth.[14] But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols and to commit fornication.[15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.[16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Revelation 2:20-24 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.[21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not.[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.[23] And I will kill her children with Death, and all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.[24] But unto you I say--and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine--and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Where was Jezebel given space to repent? unless she was in Pergamos, too. And Antipas must have passed the devil's test in Smyrna... there's no Repent being asked of them. The only Repentance for Ephesus required her return to the strength of her first love, after she'd rooted out the false-sent-ones and therefore, stopped trusting her brethren.


But here's the thing. Eating things sacrificed to idols, in the Revelation... fornication is always part of it. And fornication means to commit adultery. And spiritual adultery was the cause of the captivities of the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

So the Revelation belongs to the Gospel of Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

It isn't part of the gospel to the gentiles who can eat in the temple of the idol.

So, big picture... You're saying that it was okay for the gentiles in Corinth to eat in the temple of an idol? If so, we agree.