Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[SabbathBlessings]

Strawman. . .it's not about obeying or disobeying.

It's only about obeying, and the source of obedience being either an external written code, or an internal inscription on the heart which no longer requires an external written code.

It's not complicated. . .

If its only about obedience why have you suggested otherwise when scripture tells us to keep the commandments? You seem to be changing your argument a bit here.

The commandments (written code) just points out sin. Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20 and sin is lawlessness 1 John 3:4 and breaking one commandment is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12 so it is absolutely about obedience or disobedience to God. The law God wrote with His finger is not different than the law God wrote in our heart.

 

[Clare73]

Of course it is about obeying God or disobeying Him.

Nope. . .it's about the law being an internal code of the heart or an external code of the written letter.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nope. . .it's about the law being an internal code of the heart or an external code of the written letter.

The law just points out sin. Without a“external code” God’s law, you won’t know what sin is. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 Sin is lawlessness 1 John 3:4 and breaking one commandment is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12.

God writes His law on our hearts and minds. It’s in our hearts and we obey out of love, its in our minds so we become doers of God’s Word and not just hearers. The law God wrote with His finger is not different than the law God wrote in the heart and mind.

The law written in our heart is only known or activated by the doers of God’s Word, not the hearers only who never do. James 1:22, Romans 2:13

That’s why one of the last scriptures in the Bible says:

Blessed are those who DO His commandments Revelation 22:14 and a warning for those who do not. Revelation 22:15

This is the fruit of those who has God’s law in their hearts:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

Do you really think Paul is giving permission to commit adultery, murder, covet, or break any other of the commandments of God. You might want to think through this or prayerfully ask for guidance on this passage..

STRAWMAN!

So are you suggesting Paul is teaching us that we can murder, steal and bear false witness, breaking God's commandments and this is love

STRAWMAN!

Does love (the source) obey God or disobey God? Are you claiming once the Spirit guides us in Truth and obedience and as soon as we do that we can fall and become disobedient to God and break His commandments?

STRAWMAN!

Nope. . .identifying "love being the fullness of the law" as "breaking the law" is a strawman and a total misrepresentation of "the one who loves has fulfilled the law." (Romans 13:8-10)

The law written in our heart is only known by the doers of God’s Word,

Got it backwards again.
Doing God's word does not write the law on our hearts.
The law written on our hearts does God's word.

Those on whose hearts the law of God is written; i.e., the born again, obey it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nope. . .identifying "love being the fullness of the law" as "breaking the law" is a strawman and a total misrepresentation of "the one who loves has fulfilled the law." (Romans 13:8-10)

Those on whose hearts the law of God is written; i.e., the born again, obey it.

I never said the fullness of the law is breaking it, you seem to be, not me. You keep making the argument that one can fulfill the law by love which means we do not have the keep the law i.e. written code (your words). When one fulfills their wedding vows does that means they keep their vows or break them.? There’s only two choices obey or disobey God’s law. Romans 13:8-10 reconciles with 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6, John 14:15 Paul does not contradict God, Jesus or John.

Fulfilling the law by love is keeping the commandments not breaking them according to the clear Word of God. 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6, John 14:15

Your last statement is correct, those whose hearts the law of God is written on obey it, not disobey.

 

[Clare73]

I never said the fullness of the law is breaking it,

Review my post to which you are responding.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Review my post to which you are responding.

Yes, I re-read and did miss you changed your argument slightly- I was on my stationary bike yesterday when I responded so my apologies for missing the change in your argument.

Previously you argued that keeping the commandments out of love is not fulfilling the law, now you seem to be changing what the law is. The “written code” i.e. God’s commandments that God wrote with His own finger is not different than the commandments God wrote in our hearts and minds. The law is our guide so we know what morally right thing to do or not do. It’s not up to us to follow our moral code if we want to do the will of God as that might not be the same. If we want to do the will of God we must be obedient to God’s law- His moral code.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

STRAWMAN!

STRAWMAN!

Nope. . .identifying "love being the fullness of the law" as "breaking the law" is a strawman and a total misrepresentation of "the one who loves has fulfilled the law." (Romans 13:8-10)

Got it backwards again.
Doing God's word does not write the law on our hearts.
The law written on our hearts does God's word.

Those on whose hearts the law of God is written; i.e., the born again, obey it.

I am not saying love being the fullness of the law as breaking the law. This appears to be the argument you keep making.

Do you think love fulfills the law means we can break the commandments or does it mean we keep the commandments? You keep arguing when Romans 13:8-10 means we are keeping the commandments out of love which reconciles with God, Jesus and John. Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, 1 John 5:3. Please clear this up than once and for all, because you are a bit hard to follow on this topic and have debated me on 5 or six posts that I am wrong when I quote John saying For this is the love of God that we KEEP His commandments, which is the definition of the love of God.

I also never said doing God’s word writes the law on our hearts. God writes His law on our hearts and being a doer of God’s Word is the FRUIT of God’s law on the heart and I gave an example of it. Not sure how that was missed, but you might want to take another read my post again.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Welcome to the discussion, Guevaraj.

Can you perhaps tell me why the 10 Commandments as identified in Exodus 34:1-28, the commandments that were actually carried in the Ark of the Covenant, are ignored?

They list the Sabbath right in the middle of the Festival of Unleavened bread and the Festival of Weeks. Why not celebrate them as well as Sabbath?


The Festival of Unleavened Bread and The Festival of Weeks are no different from the Sabbath. They all are in the 10 Commandments of Exodus Chapter 34. They all commemorate. They all prefigure Christ.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Welcome to the discussion, Guevaraj.

Hi AS nice to meet you. I know your post was addressed to someone else so I hope you do not mind if I make a few comments that might be helpful to your discussion and I hope to you personally as someone who loves God. I do not spend much time here of late so forgive me for just popping in like this.

Can you perhaps tell me why the 10 Commandments as identified in Exodus 34:1-28, the commandments that were actually carried in the Ark of the Covenant, are ignored?

Why would you think that God's 10 commandments carried in the Ark of the Covenant are ignored? I am just wondering however, are you aware that not only was Gods' 10 commandments written with the finger of God on two tables of stone *Exodus 31:18 and spoken with the voice of God at Mt Sinai *Exodus 20:1-19 placed inside the Ark of the covenant *see Deuteronomy 10:2-5 but so was the Mosaic book of the covenant *see Exodus 24:7 compare Deuteronomy 31:24-26. This is of course all important to your questions so we can refer back to this section and scriptures provided here if you like a little latter if you like so get familiar with them because Gods' 10 commandments written on two tables of stone and spoken by God alone are those recorded in Exodus 20:1-19 while what was written in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) was written by Moses alone under Gods' direction and placed in the side of the ark.

They list the Sabbath right in the middle of the Festival of Unleavened bread and the Festival of Weeks. Why not celebrate them as well as Sabbath? The Festival of Unleavened Bread and The Festival of Weeks are no different from the Sabbath. They all are in the 10 Commandments of Exodus Chapter 34. They all commemorate.

Now answering your questions from the scriptures we have hinted on earlier. Scripture context is your friend here in dealing with chapter Exodus 34 so let's add it back in and add some key points that might be helpful.

• Genesis 2:1-3 - God's 4th commandment "seventh day Sabbath" was made for all mankind before sin, before law, before Moses, before Jews and before Israel . Genesis 2:1-3 - The Sabbath was made for all mankind *Mark 2:27 at creation according to Jesus
  
• Genesis 26:5 - God's people kept God's laws by the spoken words of God before the written Words of God came at Mt Sinai
  
• Exodus 20:1-19 - Gods' people knew about and kept Gods' Sabbath before Mt Sinai - Exodus 16
• Exodus 20:1-19 God first directly speaks his 10 commandments to His people outlining what the 10 commandments are
  
• Exodus 22 to Exodus 33 All other Mosaic laws from the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 were spoken to God's people by Moses including the Feast days after God directly speaks the 10 commandments from Exodus 20:1-19.

For example the Mosaic laws from the book of the covenant spoken by Moses included...

• Exodus 21:1-36 (laws of servants, kidnappers, laws to parents, and animals),
  
• Exodus 22:1-31 on Mosiac laws on theft and repayment, borrowing, fornication, witchcraft, bestiality, idolatry, widows, usury, pledges, magistrates, harvest first fruits.
  
• Exodus 23:1-33 on laws of slander, false witness, partiality, justice and judgement, oppressing the stranger, laws of the Sabbath and idolatry, and animal sacrifice and promises of blessings for obedience.
  
• Exodus 24:1-18 Moses is then called by God to come up the mountain, the people promise obedience to Moses, Moses builds an alter of twelve pillar and sprinkles the blood of the covenant sacrifice, and Moses goes to the Mountain for 40 days
• Exodus 25:1-40 Instructions of what the Israelite's were to bring to make the Ark of God, the table of show bread and golden candlesticks for the earthly Sanctuary.
• Exodus 26:1-37; Exodus 27:21 The Mosaic instructions to build the earthly Sanctuary
• Exodus 28:1-43 The Mosaic instructions for the Priesthood and garments
• Exodus 29:1-46 The Mosaic instructions for the sacrificial system and alter of burnt offerings
  
• Exodus 30:1-38 The Mosaic instructions for the sacrificial system continued
• Exodus 31:1-18 The Mosiac instructions on work in the Sanctuary, the Sabbath an everlasting sign of sanctification, Moses was given the two tables of stone with God writing the 10 commandments with His own finger.
  
• Exodus 32:1-35 God people disobey God making the idol of the golden calf. God and Moses are angry, Moses breaks the two tables of stone. Many people destroyed
  
• Exodus 33:1-23 God is angry with the people, the people are mourning, Moses talks with God to seek forgiveness for the people and to see God's glory.
• Exodus 34:1-35 The remaking or the broken tables of stone (10 commandments) and God re-writing the 10 commandments and more instruction for Moses to write in the book of the covenant.

............

All of the above are scripture context to Exodus 34:1-28. So what we have is God speaking the 10 commandments to His people directly in Exodus 20:1-19 stating exactly what the 10 commandments are. Then we see many of the laws written by Moses from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) being spoken by Moses to Gods' people. After this we see Moses being called by God to go up the mountain for 40 days and night in Exodus 24:1-10 while all the other chapters are instructions to God's people from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) as listed above on various laws of the Priesthood and Sanctuary. Then in we see Moses making the two tables of stone for God to re-write on them what he wrote and spoke the first time in Exodus 20:1-19 which He gives to Moses to put inside the ark of the covenant *Exodus 31:18; Exodus 32:15-16; Deuteronomy 10:2-5 and take down the Mountain while Gods' people were making and worshiping the golden calf and Moses upon seeing it broke God's 10 commandments (tables of stone) written with Gods' finger. Exodus 34:1-28 now is simply a continuation of the previous chapters context of God telling Moses to hew out two new tables of stone so God can re-write them and for Moses to come up the Mount to God the next morning *Exodus 34:1-2. Note Exodus 34:10 is God making the covenant with His people. That covenant included obedience to Gods' 10 commandments (Exodus 34:28) that was placed inside the ark of the covenant Deuteronomy 10:2-5 and and also included the Mosiac book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) that was placed in the side of the ark of the covenant (Deuteronomy 31:24-26) and all its laws for remission of sins and judgements. As we continue reading Exodus 34 we see two sets of laws being compiled. God's 10 commandments being re-written by God on the broken stone tablets and God adding more laws for Moses to write in the book of the covenant about God's people making covenants with the people of the land *Exodus 34:10-17. It continues then with God giving Moses instruction in regards to the Feast of Unleavened bread (Exodus 34:18), all the first born to be Gods (Exodus 34:19-20). Then in Exodus 34:21 the Sabbath commandment is mentioned in context to the times of crop harvesting and that no harvesting is to take place on the Sabbath in Exodus 34:21 which is why the Sabbath was being mentioned. Then from Exodus 34:22-23 God is outlining the Feast of weeks which is a harvest Feast (which is why the Sabbath was mentioned - no harvesting to be done on the Sabbath). Exodus 34:25-26 is instructions for the Passover and blood sacrifice. Then note what Gods' says in Exodus 34:27-28 and the Lord said to Moses write all these words for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and Israel. These scriptures are important as not only do they show God re-writing the broken tablets and 10 commandments but Moses being instructed to add more to the book of the covenant. Then after 40 days and 40 nights God writes on the tables of stone. So everything before God writing on the tables of stone Moses was writing in the book of the covenant not God's tables of stone.

They all prefigure Christ.

According to the scriptures, it is the Mosaic book of shadow laws for remission of sins which included all the earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws of the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of meat and drink offerings, the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings through blood atonement, circumcision, the annual feast days linked into these earthly Sanctuary laws that were all shadows of things to come pointing to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all and the body of Christ *John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10. All these shadow laws pointed to Jesus as our true great High Priest now to appear in the presence of God for us *Hebrews 7:1-25 in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on the better promises of the new covenant *see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22. So your mixing up the Mosaic shadow laws for remission of sins from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) that all prefigure Christ with Gods' eternal laws that in the new covenant give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) * see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. It is impossible for example for God's 4th commandment to be a shadow of anything because it points backwards as a memorial of and celebration of the finished work of creation (Exodus 20:8-11; Genesis 2:1-3) not forwards to things to come. Notice that all the Mosiac shadow laws from the book of the old covenant written by Moses were all given after the fall of mankind and point to Jesus as Gods Saviour for mankind and Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world so that we can all seek God's forgiveness of our sins through the precious blood of Christ? Note Gods 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath that God made for mankind *Mark 2:27 was made for mankind before sin entered the world when mankind was in perfect harmony and sinless before God. There was no law, no shadow laws, because there was no sin, no Moses (no shadow laws) no Jews, no Israel. Only God and sinless mankind when the Sabbath was made for man. The Sabbath is an everlasting sign to Gods' people that God is saving us from our sins *Exodus 31:13-16; Ezekiel 20:20 that is an everlasting covenant that will be continued to be kept in the new heaven and the new earth after the second coming *see Isaiah 66:22-23. According to the scriptures God's saints keep all the commandments of God not some of them *1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Leaf473]

It sounds strange to say that we must have a written code to tell us what is written on our heart.

The whole idea of having something written on your heart is that you know it instinctively, intuitively.

Did all laws end at the cross, then? No, they were written on our heart.

But not letters, it's not letters that's written on our heart. It's things like principles.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It sounds strange to say that we must have a written code to tell us what is written on our heart.

The whole idea of having something written on your heart is that you know it instinctively, intuitively.

Did all laws end at the cross, then? No, they were written on our heart.

But not letters, it's not letters that's written on our heart. It's things like principles.

To be honest, it sounds strange to me to leave following God’s law that He wrote in our hearts and minds up to man to decide. Without having a guide to follow how do you know which spirit one is following? Many people think they are following God, when they are not. The devil deceives the whole word and sin (breaking God’s law) is of the devil 1 John 3:8. We should not keep the commandments of God to be saved, keeping the commandments of God is a fruit of someone who is saved. Revelation 14:12

Notice in Matthew 7- Many people think they are following God, but really are not, only those who do the will of God will be saved- so why would you think it would be up to us when scripture clearly tells us otherwise?


Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


Build on the Rock
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

God law is written in our hearts and we obey out of love- For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3 God’s law is written in our minds so we are doers of His Word and not just hearers only, deceiving oneself. James 1:22, Romans 2:13

 

[Leaf473]

It sounds strange to me to leave following God’s law that He wrote in our hearts and minds up to man to decide. Without having a guide to follow how do you know which spirit one is following? Many people think they are following God, when they are not. The devil deceives the whole word and sin (breaking God’s law) is of the devil 1 John 3:8. We should not keep the commandments of God to be saved, keeping the commandments of God is a fruit of someone who is saved. Revelation 14:12

Notice in Matthew 7- People think they are following God, but really aren’t only those who do the will of God will be saved- so why would you think it would be up to us when scripture clearly tells us otherwise?


Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


Build on the Rock
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Hi SabbathBlessings,

Starting with this part here

It sounds strange to me to leave following God’s law that He wrote in our hearts and minds up to man to decide.

I agree, that would be strange. But we don't decide what is written on our heart, do we?

What is written on your heart? Please give details!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SabbathBlessings,

Starting with this part here

I agree, that would be strange. But we don't decide what is written on our heart, do we?

What is written on your heart? Please give details!

God’s law which includes the Ten Commandments so I would start there.

 

[Leaf473]

God’s law which includes the Ten Commandments so I would start there.

Okay... please continue.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Okay... please continue.

Like I have said, start with keeping the Ten Commandments in Truth and Spirit. When you obey, Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to guide us in all Truth. John 14:15-18 It starts by us taking the first step and wanting to obey, on God’s terms, not ours.

I’m off for now, but Happy Sabbath all and God bless!

 

[Leaf473]

Like I have said, start with keeping the Ten Commandments in Truth and Spirit. When you obey, Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to guide us in all Truth. John 14:15-18 It starts by us taking the first step and wanting to obey, on God’s terms, not ours.

I’m off for now, but Happy Sabbath all and God bless!

You were describing what was written on your heart.

God’s law which includes the Ten Commandments so I would start there.

You started there, yes, please continue, if you wish.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

 

[Clare73]

Not everything has ended. For example, the Sabbath does not point to Christ

Contraire. . .

God's full-time Sabbath rest points to our full-time salvation rest in Jesus Christ, from our works to save,
and in his work which saves (Hebrews 3:7-4:10).

on the cross it points to Creation as a memorial of everything our God has created for us "Remember", the Sabbath day to keep it holy" pointing to Genesis 2:1-3

Not according to Scripture.

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath," (Matthew 11:28),
that he rest (Deuteronomy 5:14; Exodus 31:14-15, Exodus 34:21),
a theme running through both the OT and the NT (Joshua 1:13; Joshua 22:4; 1 Kings 8:56;
Matthew 11:28; Hebrews 4:1-11),
pointing to our full-time salvation rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:6-10),
as God rested full-time from all his work (Hebrews 4:4).

 

[expos4ever]

The whole idea of having something written on your heart is that you know it instinctively, intuitively.

Absolutely correct.

How is it not obvious that to interpret the metaphor of the "law written on the heart" the way some are doing in this thread completely eviscerates the metaphor of any power - saying that we simply "internalize" the words of an otherwise written code is but a trivial change of form. This does great violence to a rich metaphor which, as you say, points to an instinctive knowing.

I wonder who else holds this view that the "law written on the heart" is really about an instinctive knowing?

Answer: no less than the apostle Paul:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

It is beyond ironic that those who pontificate at length about "honouring God's word" take it upon themselves to effectively tell Paul that he is mistaken in this rather clear articulation of what it means for the Law to be written on the heart.

 

[Clare73]

I am not saying "love being the fullness of the law as breaking the law".

We disgree. . .

Do you really think Paul is giving permission to commit adultery, murder, covet, or break any other of the commandments of God. You might want to think through this or prayerfully ask for guidance on this passage..

Does love (the source) obey God or disobey God? Are you claiming once the Spirit guides us in Truth and obedience and as soon as we do that we can fall and become disobedient to God and break His commandments?

So are you suggesting Paul is teaching us that we can murder, steal and bear false witness, breaking God's commandments and this is love