Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[Leaf473]

How it works? I don't understand what you mean.

I don't understand how it works that you separate the terms Torah and the law of Moses. As I asked earlier

If you're saying that all the prophets and the Torah - but not the law of Moses - prophesied until John, then I'm curious what you see as the Torah apart from the law of Moses.

How about some examples?

As to your last question, isn't that obvious? What is in Genesis and early in Exodus?

It isn't obvious to me. Are you thinking the Ten Commandments? Or things like creation, circumcision, Passover?

 

[Gary K]

I don't understand how it works that you separate the terms Torah and the law of Moses. As I asked earlier




It isn't obvious to me. Are you thinking the Ten Commandments? Or things like creation, circumcision, Passover?

Sorry I haven't answered before. I just now saw this.

I think I have explained the difference I see between the Torah and the law of Mosrs to you as well as I can.

As to what I emphasized, yes.

 

[Leaf473]

Sorry I haven't answered before. I just now saw this.

I think I have explained the difference I see between the Torah and the law of Mosrs to you as well as I can.

Well, you could give more examples. You had given Leviticus and Deuteronomy previously as examples of things that were Torah but not the law of Moses, but then you talked about changing your position. So I'm not sure if those are still valid examples of Torah but not the law of Moses

As to what I emphasized, yes.

Okay... I asked,
"Are you thinking the Ten Commandments? Or things like creation, circumcision, Passover?"

So... Yes to which?

 

[Gary K]

Well, you could give more examples. You had given Leviticus and Deuteronomy previously as examples of things that were Torah but not the law of Moses, but then you talked about changing your position. So I'm not sure if those are still valid examples of Torah but not the law of Moses


Okay... I asked,
"Are you thinking the Ten Commandments? Or things like creation, circumcision, Passover?"

So... Yes to which?

I really confuse you.

Yes I changed my opinion and they are examples of both.

All.

 

[Leaf473]

I really confuse you.

Yes I changed my opinion and they are examples of both.

All.

Okay... Did you want to give examples of passages that are Torah but not the law of Moses?

 

[Gary K]

Okay... Did you want to give examples of passages that are Torah but not the law of Moses?

I don't see the need after my last comment.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't see the need after my last comment.

It's up to you

If Genesis, the first part of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are all Torah and the law of Moses, I can't imagine what would qualify as Torah but not the law of Moses.

Just the last part of Exodus?

I don't think I asked you about Numbers. Is that part of the law of Moses?

 

[Gary K]

It's up to you

If Genesis, the first part of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are all Torah and the law of Moses, I can't imagine what would qualify as Torah but not the law of Moses.

Just the last part of Exodus?

I don't think I asked you about Numbers. Is that part of the law of Moses?

So confused you're very hesitant to assume anything.

Yes Numbers is part of the law of Moses as it is instructions God gave Moses to pass on to the Israelites.

 

[Leaf473]

So confused you're very hesitant to assume anything.

I'm confused about what you're saying, yes. That makes me hesitant to assume anything about what you're saying

Yes Numbers is part of the law of Moses as it is instructions God gave Moses to pass on to the Israelites.

Are you still claiming that there scripture passages that are Torah but are not the law of Moses?

All we have left is the last part of Exodus, I believe.

 

[Gary K]

I'm confused about what you're saying, yes. That makes me hesitant to assume anything about what you're saying


Are you still claiming that there scripture passages that are Torah but are not the law of Moses?

All we have left is the last part of Exodus, I believe.

Yes. Exodus up to until after the 10 commandments were given is pure Torah. Probably the easist way to understand my position is that anything to do with the laws God gaave to Moses to give to the people has to do with the law of Moses.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. Exodus up to until after the 10 commandments were given is pure Torah. Probably the easist way to understand my position is that anything to do with the laws God gaave to Moses to give to the people has to do with the law of Moses.

So... Pure Torah is all of Genesis and Exodus up to 20:23 or thereabouts.

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:23 - New Living Translation

Remember, you must not make any idols of silver or gold to rival me.

www.biblegateway.com

I'm assuming you see something in the scriptures to indicate this, what are you seeing?

 

[Gary K]

So... Pure Torah is all of Genesis and Exodus up to 20:23 or thereabouts.

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:23 - New Living Translation

Remember, you must not make any idols of silver or gold to rival me.

www.biblegateway.com

I'm assuming you see something in the scriptures to indicate this, what are you seeing?

The lack of the laws given by God to give to the people.

 

[Leaf473]

The lack of the laws given by God to give to the people.

Okay, getting back to the original idea...

Absolutely! And this came to my mind

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 11:13 - New Century Version

All the prophets and the law of Moses told about what would happen until the time John came.

www.biblegateway.com

I don't know that I like that translation. Here is why.



Here is where I believe Jesus is referring to the Torah because the Mosaic law in no way prophecied till John as it never mentioned him. He is using the word law in another way just like Paul did as Malachi prophecied of the coming of Elijah.

So, the part of Torah that isn't the law of Moses, the beginning of Genesis through Exodus 20:23, mentions John the Baptist? Maybe it does, nothing is standing out in my memory

 

[Leaf473]

Also, you probably already know this but just as a heads up, if something is inside of quote tags, such that it displays in a quote box, and then someone else quotes that post, the text inside the quote box doesn't show up.

For example, in your post that I quote in the previous message and quote again below, there's a scripture passage in the original that doesn't show up here.

I don't know that I like that translation. Here is why.



Here is where I believe Jesus is referring to the Torah because the Mosaic law in no way prophecied till John as it never mentioned him. He is using the word law in another way just like Paul did as Malachi prophecied of the coming of Elijah.

 

[Gary K]

Okay, getting back to the original idea...



So, the part of Torah that isn't the law of Moses, the beginning of Genesis through Exodus 20:23, mentions John the Baptist? Maybe it does, nothing is standing out in my memory

Not that I know of. I've never read anything like that until much later in the OT. In the minor prophets if my memory serves me right.

 

[Leaf473]

Not that I know of. I've never read anything like that until much later in the OT. In the minor prophets if my memory serves me right.

Okay... Then it doesn't seem like this actually follows

Here is where I believe Jesus is referring to the Torah because the Mosaic law in no way prophecied till John as it never mentioned him.

It seems to me, then, that "law of Moses" is just fine here.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 11:13 - New Century Version

All the prophets and the law of Moses told about what would happen until the time John came.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Okay... Then it doesn't seem like this actually follows


It seems to me, then, that "law of Moses" is just fine here.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 11:13 - New Century Version

All the prophets and the law of Moses told about what would happen until the time John came.

www.biblegateway.com

All I can say to that is Jesus was privy to information I do not have.

 

[Gary K]

Okay... Then it doesn't seem like this actually follows


It seems to me, then, that "law of Moses" is just fine here.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 11:13 - New Century Version

All the prophets and the law of Moses told about what would happen until the time John came.

www.biblegateway.com

To help you understand the Sabbath keepers' position read the following post of mine.

Jesus reveals that the 4th commandment is not moral law

Nope, he did dot make the Mosaic Covenant with all peoples. He made that covenant only with Israel (Lev 26:46; Deut 4:7-8; 6:20-25; 31:26; Ps 147:19; Est 3:8; Neh 9:7-15; Ezek 28:20:10-12; Act 7:53; Rom 9:4, etc.). Moreover, the Mosaic Covenant was bilteral in nature. Only the nation of...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Leaf473]

All I can say to that is Jesus was privy to information I do not have.

Amen, and true for all of us

To help you understand the Sabbath keepers' position read the following post of mine.

Jesus reveals that the 4th commandment is not moral law

Nope, he did dot make the Mosaic Covenant with all peoples. He made that covenant only with Israel (Lev 26:46; Deut 4:7-8; 6:20-25; 31:26; Ps 147:19; Est 3:8; Neh 9:7-15; Ezek 28:20:10-12; Act 7:53; Rom 9:4, etc.). Moreover, the Mosaic Covenant was bilteral in nature. Only the nation of...

www.christianforums.com

Well, post #74 there talks about the Talmud, how difficult it was to keep all of the things in it. I definitely agree, we don't need to keep the Talmud.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 19:8 - King James Version

The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Amen, and true for all of us

Well, post #74 there talks about the Talmud, how difficult it was to keep all of the things in it. I definitely agree, we don't need to keep the Talmud.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 19:8 - King James Version

The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

www.biblegateway.com

It isn't difficult to keep it is impossible. Paul spoke to this in the NT in a few places but a person has to be familiar enough with the Talmud to understand where. I listed three of those instances in one of my last posts to Doran. He hasn't answered it yet and I'll be interested in seeing what he has to say.