Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

Leaf473 · Jul 12, 2023

Gary K said:
I think the context makes it obvious. He lists a bunch of sins and then the fruit of the Spirit which breaks no law and as sin is the transgression of the law what else but the 10 commandments?

Okay, going with that idea, the 10 commandments are fulfilled by loving one's neighbor as oneself, as opposed to taking the literal, physical actions prescribed in those Commandments.

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:13 - New American Standard Bible

For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love.

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K · Jul 12, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Okay, going with that idea, the 10 commandments are fulfilled by loving one's neighbor as oneself, as opposed to taking the literal, physical actions prescribed in those Commandments.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sNosearch=Galatians+5:13&version=NASB

No. Those literal commandments are the love of God for His love is a principle not simply an emotion as we understand love. Would Jesus have gone through the death of the cross for something as variable as an emotion? Doesn't going through all that for a principle make a whole lot more sense? Think about how Jesus described the law. The Golden rule isn't an emotion. Neither is not committing adultery, or not worshiping idols or not coveting anything that is your neighbors. or any of the rest of the 10. Think about the sermon on the mount in which Jesus expanded the meaning of the commandments.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Gary K said:
No. Those literal commandments are the love of God for His love is a principle not simply an emotion as we understand love. Would Jesus have gone through the death of the cross for something as variable as an emotion? Doesn't going through all that for a principle make a whole lot more sense? Think about how Jesus described the law. The Golden rule isn't an emotion. Neither is not committing adultery, or not worshiping idols or not coveting anything that is your neighbors. or any of the rest of the 10. Think about the sermon on the mount in which Jesus expanded the meaning of the commandments.

That's right, love is not an emotion But there are more than two options, emotion or specific physical activity.

Many people want to turn this passage around and say that the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself is fulfilled by the Ten Commandments.

In the parable of the Good Samaritan, there's nothing to indicate the priest or the Levite were breaking any of the 10.

Gary K · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
That's right, love is not an emotion But there are more than two options, emotion or specific physical activity.

Many people want to turn this passage around and say that the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself is fulfilled by the Ten Commandments.

In the parable of the Good Samaritan, there's nothing to indicate the priest or the Levite were breaking any of the 10.

Nothing but the words of Jesus.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Luk 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Gary K said:
Nothing but the words of Jesus.

Absolutely! And this came to my mind

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 11:13 - New Century Version

All the prophets and the law of Moses told about what would happen until the time John came.

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Absolutely! And this came to my mind

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 11:13 - New Century Version

All the prophets and the law of Moses told about what would happen until the time John came.

www.biblegateway.com

I don't know that I like that translation. Here is why.

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Here is where I believe Jesus is referring to the Torah because the Mosaic law in no way prophecied till John as it never mentioned him. He is using the word law in another way just like Paul did as Malachi prophecied of the coming of Elijah.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Gary K said:
I don't know that I like that translation. Here is why.

Here is where I believe Jesus is referring to the Torah because the Mosaic law in no way prophecied till John as it never mentioned him. He is using the word law in another way just like Paul did as Malachi prophecied of the coming of Elijah.

Do you see a difference between the Torah and the law of Moses? I thought most people used those interchangeably.

Gary K · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Do you see a difference between the Torah and the law of Moses? I thought most people used those interchangeably.

Yes. Although I would imagine most people of your persuasion theologically see it as you do.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Gary K said:
Yes. Although I would imagine most people of your persuasion theologically see it as you do.

Well... What is the difference as you use them?

Gary K · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Well... What is the difference as you use them?

The Torah contains the Mosaic law but is not the Mosaic law.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Gary K said:
The Torah contains the Mosaic law but is not the Mosaic law.

What is in the Torah in addition to the Mosaic law?

Gary K · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
What is in the Torah in addition to the Mosaic law?

More irrelevancy. You don't know that the Torah contains anything other than the 10 commandments? I suppose that's true from your point of view but we've communicated enough to for you to know that is not my view.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Gary K said:
More irrelevancy. You don't know that the Torah contains anything other than the 10 commandments? I suppose that's true from your point of view but we've communicated enough to for you to know that is not my view.

We were talking about Jesus saying
"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

Did you say that law there refers to Torah?

Gary K said:
Here is where I believe Jesus is referring to the Torah because the Mosaic law in no way prophecied till John as it never mentioned him.

Then did you say

Gary K said:
The Torah contains the Mosaic law but is not the Mosaic law.

When I hear Torah, I think of the first five books of the Bible, which I believe is the common usage

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1426382/jewish/Torah.htm

So if you mean something different, I'm asking you to explain what you mean. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine

Gary K · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
We were talking about Jesus saying
"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

Did you say that law there refers to Torah?

Then did you say

When I hear Torah, I think of the first five books of the Bible, which I believe is the common usage

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1426382/jewish/Torah.htm

So if you mean something different, I'm asking you to explain what you mean. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine

I am still confused. You want to go over this again? And what does the Jewish position on the Torah have to do with your questions as I'm pretty sure you don't agree with the Jewish position on much of anything.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Gary K said:
I am still confused. You want to go over this again? And what does the Jewish position on the Torah have to do with your questions as I'm pretty sure you don't agree with the Jewish position on much of anything.

The Jews today figure in because it is from their cultural heritage that the word Torah comes.

If you're saying that all the prophets and the Torah - but not the law of Moses - prophesied until John, then I'm curious what you see as the Torah apart from the law of Moses.

How about some examples?

Gary K · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
The Jews today figure in because it is from their cultural heritage that the word Torah comes.

If you're saying that all the prophets and the Torah - but not the law of Moses - prophesied until John, then I'm curious what you see as the Torah apart from the law of Moses.

How about some examples?

The entire book of Deuteronomy. It is a list of what God would do to the Israelites/Jews would do. It was not kept under the mercy seat but in a pocket on the side of the ark.

Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

This means it was not under the mercy seat and thus not covered by God's mercy.

Leaf473 · Jul 14, 2023

Gary K said:
The entire book of Deuteronomy. It is a list of what God would do to the Israelites/Jews would do. It was not kept under the mercy seat but in a pocket on the side of the ark.

This means it was not under the mercy seat and thus not covered by God's mercy.

Are you saying that the book of Deuteronomy is an example of the part of Torah that isn't the law of Moses?

Gary K · Jul 14, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Are you saying that the book of Deuteronomy is an example of the part of Torah that isn't the law of Moses?

I'm not sure of your meaning, but Deuteronomy was never meant for anyone but the Israelites/Jews as it is a book of blessing and cursing for them alone based upon their behavior. All commands God has given that are applicable to us were placed under the mercy seat in the ark of the covenant as His mercy covers all sins that are repented of.

Leaf473 · Jul 14, 2023

Gary K said:
I'm not sure of your meaning, but Deuteronomy was never meant for anyone but the Israelites/Jews as it is a book of blessing and cursing for them alone based upon their behavior. All commands God has given that are applicable to us were placed under the mercy seat in the ark of the covenant as His mercy covers all sins that are repented of.

Okay, here's the chain of exchanges

I said

Leaf473 said:
If you're saying that all the prophets and the Torah - but not the law of Moses - prophesied until John, then I'm curious what you see as the Torah apart from the law of Moses.

And asked for some examples

Leaf473 said:
How about some examples?

You responded with

Gary K said:
The entire book of Deuteronomy.

So now I'm clarifying to be sure that's what you meant

Leaf473 said:
Are you saying that the book of Deuteronomy is an example of the part of Torah that isn't the law of Moses?

So... Is that what you're saying?

Gary K · Jul 14, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Okay, here's the chain of exchanges

I said

And asked for some examples

You responded with

So now I'm clarifying to be sure that's what you meant

So... Is that what you're saying?

Obviously.

Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

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