Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

SabbathBlessings

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So celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday rather than Saturday is as grave a sin as murder? Is that what you believe?
What we think does not matter- God commanded us to keep His Sabbath holy on the seventh day Exodus 20:8-11 in the exact same way He commanded us to not murder, or steal. Jesus said to keep the least of these commandments quoting directly from the Ten. Matthew 5:19-30. God told Adam and Eve they could eat from any tree except one- its just a tree right, so what difference does a day make? You can wait and find out if God really cares about the day, or trust we should do what He commands us to do.
 
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Leaf473

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In context James is not making the point of the form "go ahead and take God's name in vain -- since I am sure you will do at least something wrong at some point... no worries ... pay no attention, why live as if you will be judged by such a law?"

If there is a way to bend-wrench the following into the statement I just wrote above -- please let me know.

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
That's right, we don't want to fulfill the desires of the flesh!

When James writes this, Christians are probably still making offerings at the Temple. James is talking about keeping the entire law!
 
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Danthemailman

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So celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday rather than Saturday is as grave a sin as murder? Is that what you believe?
Seventh-day Adventists teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.

Mark of the Beast
 
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Leaf473

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Seventh-day Adventists teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.

Mark of the Beast
Hi Danthemailman! It strikes me as kind of strange how obedience to the ten commandments is kind of presented as more important than obedience to other laws. Yet the James passage I was just talking about earlier says that if you break one you are guilty of breaking them all.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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What we think does not matter- God commanded us to keep His Sabbath holy on the seventh day Exodus 20:8-11 in the exact same way He commanded us to not murder, or steal. Jesus said to keep the least of these commandments quoting directly from the Ten. Matthew 5:19-30. God told Adam and Eve they could eat from any tree except one- its just a tree right, so what difference does a day make? You can wait and find out if God really cares about the day, or trust we should do what He commands us to do.
Strict Literalist interpretation run off the rails. Sad distraction.


The Festival of Unleavened Bread and The Festival of Weeks are no different from the Sabbath. They all are in the 10 Commandments of Exodus 34. They all commemorate. They all prefigure Christ.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Seventh-day Adventists teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.

Mark of the Beast

The link you provided is an anti-Adventist group which intentionally misuses the view of the Adventist church, but instead of going to outside sources what does scripture say:

Revelation 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Where do we see this verbiage? Right in the Sabbath commandment that God told us to "remember" and what most of the world has forgotten- the opposite of God's own Words.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

A women is symbolic for church in scripture. There is God's True Church and the false church. God is calling everyone right now out of Babylon and the false teachings and calling us to worship Him in Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast (according to scripture the mark of the beast is about WORSHIP) and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. As revealed by Christ to John in Revelation the saints (saved ones) keep the commandments of God, which includes the 4th commandment. Unlike the majority of the churches today teach you either don't need to keep the commandments of God or only 9 out of Ten and the one commandment we can "forget" is the one commandment GOD said to "Remember"

Interestingly enough God said those who hallow (keep) His Sabbath shall be a sign between Him and His people. Ezekiel 20:20- Seal the saints Revelation 7:1-3. The Sabbath is the only commandment that has the markings of a seal.

It states the name of the Lawgiver (LORD), His territory (heaven and Earth), and His title (Creator). These three components comprise what is known as a seal, and lend authority to the law.

Jesus in His own Words said those who keep mans traditions over the commandments of God worship in vain (there is that word again). There is no commandment for Sunday-keeping this is a tradition of man , God commanded us to keep holy the seventh day Sabbath, this is a commandment of God. Exodus 20:8-11 The Sabbath day was changed by the Roman Catholic church not on the Authority of Jesus Christ just like it was predicted Daniel 7:25

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Do we follow the teachings of the Catholic church or follow God?

 
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SabbathBlessings

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Hi Danthemailman! It strikes me as kind of strange how obedience to the ten commandments is kind of presented as more important than obedience to other laws. Yet the James passage I was just talking about earlier says that if you break one you are guilty of breaking them all.
James was quoting from the Ten Commandments verbatim, so you might need another argument.

God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him Acts 5:32 a good place to start is the commandments of God written by God's own finger. We cannot understand the scriptures without the Holy Spirit who promises to teach us all things, so when we come to God with an open heart willing to place aside our own wishes and wants and be willing to do what God has commanded us (obey) His Spirit will teach us the scriptures. Many people want the fruits but are not willing to replace their will with God's will.

Psalm 40:9 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all. Ecclesiastes 12:13
 
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Leaf473

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James was quoting from the Ten Commandments verbatim, so you might need another argument.

God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him Acts 5:32 a good place to start is the commandments of God written by God's own finger. We cannot understand the scriptures without the Holy Spirit who promises to teach us all things, so when we come to God with an open heart willing to place aside our own wishes and wants and be willing to do what God has commanded us (obey) His Spirit will teach us the scriptures. Many people want the fruits but are not willing to replace their will with God's will.

Psalm 40:9 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all. Ecclesiastes 12:13
James quotes some of the 10, but he also quotes "Love your neighbor as yourself", which isn't one of the 10.

While it is true that if you love your neighbor as yourself you will keep those commandments that hang on loving your neighbor, it is also true that you can keep the ten commandments exactly as written and not love your neighbor. That's one of the lessons of the parable of the Good Samaritan imo.

So James is talking about keeping the entire law.

An interesting law I was just reading yesterday from Deuteronomy 14: At the end of every three years you shall bring all the tithe of your increase in the same year, and shall store it within your gates.

If a person believes that all tithing laws must be followed in order to be obedient, I'd be interested in hearing how they keep that law.
 
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Leaf473

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In the parable of the good samaritan, the priest and the levite are very likely keeping the ten commandments exactly as written. They probably weren't committing adultery or murdering anyone, and they certainly weren't coveting anything the beat-up man had. Yet they didn't love their neighbor as themselves.

So the commandment to love your neighbor is not the same as the ten commandments.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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James quotes some of the 10, but he also quotes "Love your neighbor as yourself", which isn't one of the 10.

While it is true that if you love your neighbor as yourself you will keep those commandments that hang on loving your neighbor, it is also true that you can keep the ten commandments exactly as written and not love your neighbor. That's one of the lessons of the parable of the Good Samaritan imo.

So James is talking about keeping the entire law.

An interesting law I was just reading yesterday from Deuteronomy 14: At the end of every three years you shall bring all the tithe of your increase in the same year, and shall store it within your gates.

If a person believes that all tithing laws must be followed in order to be obedient, I'd be interested in hearing how they keep that law.
Here's the scripture:

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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In the parable of the good samaritan, the priest and the levite are very likely keeping the ten commandments exactly as written. They probably weren't committing adultery or murdering anyone, and they certainly weren't coveting anything the beat-up man had. Yet they didn't love their neighbor as themselves.

So the commandment to love your neighbor is not the same as the ten commandments.
Absolutely. The commandments are fulfilled when we love God and love man by keeping the commandments of God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

We should probably not read our own interpretations into scriptures "probably were keeping the commandments" or "probably not keeping the commandments" only God can judge what is in our hearts and the motivation to obey Him. We should always obey Him because of love.
 
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Leaf473

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Here's the scripture:

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
Yes!
And starting at verse 8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
 
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Leaf473

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Absolutely. The commandments are fulfilled when we love God and love man by keeping the commandments of God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

We should probably not read our own interpretations into scriptures "probably were keeping the commandments" or "probably not keeping the commandments" only God can judge what is in our hearts and the motivation to obey Him. We should always obey Him because of love.
Is there any evidence in the parable of the Good Samaritan that the priest and the levite were violating any of the ten commandments? I don't think so. But we do see that they were violating the love your neighbor commandment.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Is there any evidence in the parable of the Good Samaritan that the priest and the levite were violating any of the ten commandments? I don't think so. But we do see that they were violating the love your neighbor commandment.
You can't obey the commandments of God if you do not have love for your neighbor or love for God. 1 John 5:3 I think someone might not understand the Spirit of the commandments of God, which is greater than just the letter.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes!
And starting at verse 8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
You can't love your neighbor if one is violating the commandments of God. Breaking one of the commandments is like breaking them all as James goes on to quote directly from the Ten.
 
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Leaf473

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You can't obey the commandments of God if you do not have love for your neighbor or love for God. 1 John 5:3 I think someone might not understand the Spirit of the commandments of God, which is greater than just the letter.
Right! Could the priest and the levite have been obeying the letter of the commandment not to commit adultery while at the same time still not loving their neighbor?

I say Yes, so I don't think the love of your neighbor commandments is the same as the 10.

I see James quoting verbatim three commandments in chapter 2. Two of them are from the ten commandments, one is not.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Right! Could the priest and the levite have been obeying the letter of the commandment not to commit adultery while at the same time still not loving their neighbor?

I say Yes, so I don't think the love of your neighbor commandments is the same as the 10.

I see James quoting verbatim three commandments in chapter 2. Two of them are from the ten commandments, one is not.
No not the same but are fulfilled by love when keeping the commandments of God. Romans 13:9-10. For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3. Breaking the commandments does not show love to God or our neighbor.
 
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Leaf473

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No not the same but are fulfilled by love when keeping the commandments of God. Romans 13:9-10. For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3. Breaking the commandments does not show love to God or our neighbor.
Exactly! Not the same as one of the 10.

So when we are talking about James quoting verbatim in chapter 2, he quotes the letters of two commandments from the ten commandments, and one commandment from the rest of the law.

This supports the idea that James is referring to the entire law.

So if the idea is that a person who keeps the ten commandments is considered obedient enough by God to receive the Holy Spirit, then I disagree. If you're not keeping the entire law, you're not keeping the 10 as well.

I can consider the idea that we only have to keep the parts of the law still in effect today, but I have to see a reasonable way to divide up the law that way.

Which brings us back to the thread topic.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Exactly! Not the same as one of the 10.

So when we are talking about James quoting verbatim in chapter 2, he quotes the letters of two commandments from the ten commandments, and one commandment from the rest of the law.

This supports the idea that James is referring to the entire law.

So if the idea is that a person who keeps the ten commandments is considered obedient enough by God to receive the Holy Spirit, then I disagree. If you're not keeping the entire law, you're not keeping the 10 as well.

I can consider the idea that we only have to keep the parts of the law still in effect today, but I have to see a reasonable way to divide up the law that way.

Which brings us back to the thread topic.
We have to follow the scriptures and God's law includes the Ten Commandments in both letter and Spirit. Jesus magnified the commandments of God which means to make greater not lesser and showed us an example of this directly from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 5:19-30 the Ten Commandments are much greater than the letter that's why they are God's perfect law Psalms 19:7. Almost every law has an umbrella under the Ten. If one is keeping the Spirit of God's law, the letter will automatically be kept. If you find yourself breaking the letter, its a good test you are not following by the Spirit. The Spirit will never lead you to break any of God's commandments. Acts 5:32, John 14:15-18 Isaiah 8:20
 
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