Description of Heaven

[OzSpen]

No one I know has given an accurate description of Heaven. I am not talking about what is said to be happening a thousand, or million, or billion years from now. That is typically what is described as Heaven. That may be called the Eternal State. That means, what will it be like for us in eternity after the restitution of all things.

Acts 3
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
​

What is Heaven like now?
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Avid,

Don't expect to get much information from Scripture about Christians who are in heaven now because that is not where they are. Heaven is our ultimate destination, but Christians who have died are currently in what is known as the Intermediate State. Evangelical theologian, Wayne Grudem, explains that this is

The state of a person between his or her death and the time that Christ returns to give believers new resurrection bodies. In the intermediate state, believers exist as spirits without physical bodies (Grudem 1999:487).

The souls/spirits of believers go immediately into God's presence (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1;23). However, what did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? 'Today you will be with me in Paradise' (Lk 23:43). See also Heb 12:23 where it speaks of 'the spirits of just men made perfect'.

At that time, the understanding of going to be in Paradise was not unconscious existence, but a place of conscious existence (see also Lk 16:19-31). Paul said his desire was 'to depart and be with Christ' and that was 'far better' (Phil 1:23).

I recommend a read of Erwin Lutzer, One minute after you die (1997).

Oz

Works consulted

Grudem, W 1999. J Purswell (ed), Bible doctrine: Essential teachings of the Christian faith. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press/Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

Lutzer, E W 1997. One minute after you die: A preview of your final destination. Chicago: Moody Press.

 

[Alithis]

Avid,

Don't expect to get much information from Scripture about Christians who are in heaven now because that is not where they are. Heaven is our ultimate destination, but Christians who have died are currently in what is known as the Intermediate State. Evangelical theologian, Wayne Grudem, explains that this is

The souls/spirits of believers go immediately into God's presence (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1;23). However, what did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? 'Today you will be with me in Paradise' (Lk 23:43). See also Heb 12:23 where it speaks of 'the spirits of just men made perfect'.

At that time, the understanding of going to be in Paradise was not unconscious existence, but a place of conscious existence (see also Lk 16:19-31). Paul said his desire was 'to depart and be with Christ' and that was 'far better' (Phil 1:23).

I recommend a read of Erwin Lutzer, One minute after you die (1997).

Oz

Works consulted

Grudem, W 1999. J Purswell (ed), Bible doctrine: Essential teachings of the Christian faith. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press/Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

Lutzer, E W 1997. One minute after you die: A preview of your final destination. Chicago: Moody Press.

and while none of that is disagreeable ..one must also allow for the concept of eternity as in ..being outside of the conscripts of "time" ..
so what for us who still live ..may be 60 years or 1000 years since our loved one passed away from this world ... may ,for them, be but a moment between dying the first death and being received into the marriage supper of the lamb ..
being that outside of time there can be no passing of it ...

lol just thought id throw that mind boggler in there for fun

 

[OzSpen]

and while none of that is disagreeable ..one must also allow for the concept of eternity as in ..being outside of the conscripts of "time" ..
so what for us who still live ..may be 60 years or 1000 years since our loved one passed away from this world ... may ,for them, be but a moment between dying the first death and being received into the marriage supper of the lamb ..
being that outside of time there can be no passing of it ...

lol just thought id throw that mind boggler in there for fun

But it doesn't address the OP.

 

[Avid]

... Don't expect to get much information from Scripture about Christians who are in heaven now because that is not where they are. Heaven is our ultimate destination, but Christians who have died are currently in what is known as the Intermediate State. Evangelical theologian, Wayne Grudem, explains that this is

The state of a person between his or her death and the time that Christ returns to give believers new resurrection bodies. In the intermediate state, believers exist as spirits without physical bodies (Grudem 1999:487).

The souls/spirits of believers go immediately into God's presence (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1;23).

However, what did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? 'Today you will be with me in Paradise' (Lk 23:43). See also Heb 12:23 where it speaks of 'the spirits of just men made perfect'.

As you state in your reply, the place for the souls of the departed (before man's reconciliation by Jesus Christ) was Paradise or Torment in the heart of the Earth. They were apparently in sight of each other, the just and the unjust. As the description of Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom you have referenced states, the place for the righteous dead was there.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus Christ had a wonderful promise that carried two specific details. First, that his crucifixion would not last days like many others. He would pass from this life that same day (legs were broken.) Second, it was Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) where he would go at his death, and Jesus would go there the same day.

Having that picture of the thief being in Paradise, and of Lazarus being in Paradise (Abraham's Bosom,) and that of souls being in the heart of the Earth, we can see that Jesus went there like all others who died from Adam to the Resurrection of our LORD Jesus. As stated in scripture, there was a death sentence upon all people because of the sin of Adam, and there was no way made into the presence of God the Father.

Jesus made a reconciliation between Man and God, and made a way for man to be ushered into His presence. He went to the Father after first going into the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.

I Peter 3
18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Matthew 12
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

John 16
16 ¶ A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
--- etc.---
28 ¶ I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

​

As Jesus Christ had victory over Death, Hell and the Grave, He imparted that victory to those righteous people who were kept in Paradise (Abraham's Bosom,) and led them into the abode of God, Heaven, God's Throne, when He ascended after His Resurrection. That aspect is covered less by scripture (as noted by you, OZ,) but we are told plainly that it happened.

Jesus Christ said that, upon their deaths, His followers would ever be with Him, where He is. Presently that is sitting on the throne of God the Father, at His right hand, and in the future, it will be returning in glory, reigning on Earth, and eventually, inhabiting the Great, Holy City, New Jerusalem on the New Earth.

Psalm 68
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
​

... At that time, the understanding of going to be in Paradise was not unconscious existence, but a place of conscious existence (see also Lk 16:19-31). Paul said his desire was 'to depart and be with Christ' and that was 'far better' (Phil 1:23).

In the story of Lazarus (not referred to as a parable,) Jesus states that the dead were aware, the dead prayed for the living, and that there was no mercy for the unjust in torment there. Abraham told "the rich man" that, his brethren had Moses and the prophets, and they should hear them. They would not respond if a man returned from the dead. The "rich man" replied that a person coming back to life from the dead may be just what they needed.

Lazarus actually did come back to life after 4 days in the grave. This was an answer to the prayer of a dead person for people living on Earth. The Gospel of John indicates it had the effect of causing many to believe in Jesus Christ, and that bothered the religious leaders enough to consider having Lazarus killed in addition to their plans to kill Jesus.
(John.12:10-11)

We are promised by the LORD that we will ever be with Him when we are no longer in this life. (II.Cor.5:6-8) Absent any clear scripture stating that there is some intermediate place of existence, since the souls of the righteous dead were take captive when Jesus ascended, we are left with this fact, that the righteous dead of our age of grace are ushered into God's presence at their death. Paul clearly stated that if he were to die, it would be better for him, but not for those who would count on him writing letters of spiritual instruction and admonition.
(Philippians.1:21-15)

There is much encouragement in the later letters of Paul, as the LORD prepared him to depart this life, and be with Him in Heaven. We can see the value of Paul not being allowed to leave this life when he was stoned at Lystra, or nearly pulled into pieces in Jerusalem. We benefit as we see the truth of the scriptures related to us by the Apostle Paul, and those here at that time may not have been able to endure without that being imparted to them.

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[skypair]

Avid .. I think I have your answer. Heb 12:22-24 tells us what is in 3rd heaven (per Paul in his visit in 2Cor 12:2-4). There will be the heavenly Jerusalem (no doubt the one we will go to in the rapture), the assembly of the church of the firstborn in Christ (us), God, the spirits of just men made perfect (OT saints), Jesus, and innumerable company of angels.

Rev 6:9-11 tells us what we will be if we arrive via death. We will have the mind/spirit that we left the earth with remembering all that had happened to us. We will probably be given white robes (of righteousness) and told to rest for a season among the assembly of the firstborn rather than of the spirits of just men made perfect.

Rev 4-5 shows us the throne of God in heavenly Jerusalem just after the rapture. So you see, we have 2 witnesses of that place, the kingdom of God that will one day come down to the New Earth.

skypair

 

[OzSpen]

Avid,

We are promised by the LORD that we will ever be with Him when we are no longer in this life. (II.Cor.5:6-8) Absent any clear scripture stating that there is some intermediate place of existence, since the souls of the righteous dead were take captive when Jesus ascended, we are left with this fact, that the righteous dead of our age of grace are ushered into God's presence at their death. Paul clearly stated that if he were to die, it would be better for him, but not for those who would count on him writing letters of spiritual instruction and admonition.
(Philippians.1:21-15)

This is not so. The Intermediate State is the name given to the state of people between their deaths and the time of Christ's return. Then believers will be given their resurrection bodies. However, in this intermediate state believers exist as spirits and they do not have physical bodies.

It is true that there is an intermediate state for believers and unbelievers between death and Christ's second coming. For believers, they are immediately in the presence of God at death (2 Cor 5:8). For unbelievers, they are immediately receiving eternal punishment at death (Lk 16:24-26; Heb 9:27). This is known in systematic theology as the intermediate state.

Oz

 

[Avid]

... The Intermediate State is the name given to the state of people between their deaths and the time of Christ's return. Then believers will be given their resurrection bodies. However, in this intermediate state believers exist as spirits and they do not have physical bodies.

It is true that there is an intermediate state for believers and unbelievers between death and Christ's second coming. For believers, they are immediately in the presence of God at death (2 Cor 5:8). For unbelievers, they are immediately receiving eternal punishment at death (Lk 16:24-26; Heb 9:27). This is known in systematic theology as the intermediate state.

Oz

Yes. OZ, I think I follow you, and that people (the Just and Unjust) have an existence, and some sort of spiritual form (not an actual, physical body.) That is not what I was referencing, but that some call this time "Soul Sleep," assuming no awareness. Others are trying to call it Purgatory or Limbo.

I said, "a place." These people will be in the presence of the LORD Jesus, in a spiritual form, in a spiritual place, before their GLORIFIED LORD in His GLORIFIED PHYSICAL BODY (flesh and bones,) in the third Heaven, and in the presence of God the Father.

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[Alithis]

No ...a celestial body.. not flesh .
"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"

 

[Avid]

No ...a celestial body.. not flesh .
"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"

Notice I did not say flesh and blood.

Celestial bodies for believers that have gone to be with the LORD, I'll accept, as it is equivalent to spiritual form as I had said. Not sure you can call it a body exactly, but it is close enough for establishing agreement on that.

Jesus had a glorified human body made of flesh and bones. He was not purely spirit as some people surmise.

Luke 24
36 ¶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
​

We want to be careful to have scriptural backing and references for our opinions. I can learn, but will not let someone's opinion supersede the truth of the scriptures.
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[98cwitr]

I have a question for those who believe we go to heaven or hell immediately when we die:

If we go to one or the other, then what is the purpose of the Judgement? Isn't the immediate destination to heaven or hell judgement prior to Judgement Day?

 

[OzSpen]

Yes. OZ, I think I follow you, and that people (the Just and Unjust) have an existence, and some sort of spiritual form (not an actual, physical body.) That is not what I was referencing, but that some call this time "Soul Sleep," assuming no awareness. Others are trying to call it Purgatory or Limbo.

I said, "a place." These people will be in the presence of the LORD Jesus, in a spiritual form, in a spiritual place, before their GLORIFIED LORD in His GLORIFIED PHYSICAL BODY (flesh and bones,) in the third Heaven, and in the presence of God the Father.
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Avid,

I do not support the soul sleep theology. See my rather lengthy response at: 'Soul Sleep: A Refutation'.

So do you believe that Jesus is presently in a physical body with flesh and bones? Would you please provide biblical evidence for such?

 

[Avid]

Avid,

I do not support the soul sleep theology. See my rather lengthy response at: 'Soul Sleep: A Refutation'.

Can you summarize for our discussion?

So do you believe that Jesus is presently in a physical body with flesh and bones? Would you please provide biblical evidence for such?

Just did... I even made the pertinent phrase bold, so as to be easily seen.

For further evidence from scripture, we are reminded that Jesus Christ rose from the Dead. His body was resurrected, and did not see corruption, as did David's body (proving that David did not write this about himself.) Jesus is in a Physical Glorified body, and we are promised that we will be like Him if we follow Him.

I Corinthians 15
20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Psalm 16
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 49
9 That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

Acts 2
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
--- etc.---
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Acts 13
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

I John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
​

Thanks for responding. I do like a lively discussion on spiritual matters!
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[Avid]

I have a question for those who believe we go to heaven or hell immediately when we die:

If we go to one or the other, then what is the purpose of the Judgement? Isn't the immediate destination to heaven or hell judgement prior to Judgement Day?

Good question. There is discussion by our LORD Jesus Christ on the subject, and the Apostle John saw what will happen later.

Notice that friends and family did not care enough for the poor beggar to give him a funeral, but the rich man had all the ceremony the world affords.

Luke 16
19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
​

Like it or not; believe it or not, the scriptures tell us of Jesus bringing this Lazarus back to life. It glorified Jesus, and showed the power of God, while answering the prayer of the deceased "rich man" who was in Hell.

Next, notice that Death & Hell give up the dead in them. These are the spirits of the dead people. The Sea and Earth are giving up the bodies. They are mostly only scattered molecules, but that is used to give them bodies suitable for punishment. This will necessarily NOT be something that is subject to being obliterated by the coming punishment.

Revelation 20
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

​

So we see that dying, and the soul being imprisoned in the heart of the Earth, is the First Death. After being reunited with the body, made suitable for what is coming, and being cast away after Judgment, is the Second Death. The Lake of Fire is that Second Death.

Revelation 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

​

You can consult the Greek or Hebrew for the actual word used for each of these. We are told it is HELL and THE LAKE OF FIRE. Hell is referred to in other places as the Bottomless Pit.

At a certain point during Great Tribulation, the Bottomless Pit is opened, and worse things than were already upon the Earth will be loosed. The people who are living at that time will mostly be those who have preferred to align themselves with Satan (mark of the Beast, etc.) Not sure of any who are redeemed at this point. If so, they seal that testimony when they are beheaded.

Whatever it was like being in Hell, in torment, was better than the coming Judgment, and ultimate punishment these people will face, who stand before the Great White Throne. This will be the biggest prayer meeting in all of history! Most of all the people who ever lived will pray to the rocks an mountains to bury them, as what is coming is WORSE.

I get this from scripture as applied by many years of the good "Fire and Brimstone" preaching that this world so hates, and is so difficult to find these days.

 

[skypair]

If we go to one or the other, then what is the purpose of the Judgement? Isn't the immediate destination to heaven or hell judgement prior to Judgement Day?

There's always the separation of the sheep and the goats before the judgment. In the rapture, for instance, those in Christ go and those not in Christ are left behind, right? Then the judgment comes when all believers of the new covenant are gathered to the Bema, "rewards," seat of judgment to judge their works, 1Cor 3:15-17.

It works the same at Jesus 2nd coming to earth. The sheep and "Talented" servants will be resurrected and gathered to Christ for reward.

skypair

 

[Alithis]

...actually im kind of hovering around this thread because while th Op has attempted to dismiss the perception of others as to the description of heaven...
im yet to read what is Avid's perception .....mostly ambiguous thus far..but thats fully acceptable,since we havnt yet been there but by faith

 

[98cwitr]

There's always the separation of the sheep and the goats before the judgment. In the rapture, for instance, those in Christ go and those not in Christ are left behind, right? Then the judgment comes when all believers of the new covenant are gathered to the Bema, "rewards," seat of judgment to judge their works, 1Cor 3:15-17.

It works the same at Jesus 2nd coming to earth. The sheep and "Talented" servants will be resurrected and gathered to Christ for reward.

skypair

Is the separation assumed judgement in and of itself? Does a goat choose to be a goat? A sheep chooses to be a sheep?

There are several uses for the word heaven as we find it translated through the Hebrew and Greek texts.

Heaven can be referred to as the sky or space
Heaven can be the place where God and angels dwells and is referred to as God's Throne
Bible suggests that there are multiple levels of Heaven
The Gospels make many references to the Kingdom of Heaven, and parables are told about it
Light, rain, and wind can come from heaven
God builds the elect a home in heaven

What I dont find are the details about what heaven actually looks like...or feels like. I think the blending of the physical heavens (sky) and Heaven (where God is) gives us the contemporary puffy cloud - golden gate mentality and visualization. What I don't find is any evidence of this in Scripture. The word heaven must be taken into context, because it can have different meanings when used referring to either physical or spiritual things.

 

[Avid]

...actually im kind of hovering around this thread because while th Op has attempted to dismiss the perception of others as to the description of heaven...
im yet to read what is Avid's perception .....mostly ambiguous thus far..but thats fully acceptable,since we havnt yet been there but by faith

Yes, I accept a few things that are a little different than I read them, but am not going off to read some DD, or ThD to find their erroneous opinions to stack on top of everyone else's. Opinion is fun, is sometimes interesting, but cannot replace the scriptures.

Did it to discuss the matter. As I initiated, we ARE told of a sea of glass, clear as crystal, mingled with fire. I think it is in two places, but we DON'T hear of streets of Gold, except in the great and holy city, New Jerusalem. There is so much that must transpire before that is revealed, but it is all that people think of when they think of a different place, Heaven.

Had this conversation with a pastor. Had listed a few things we are told, and noticed how he seemed to have never considered these...

.

 

[Alithis]

Not sure what the issue is.
We hear of streets so pure they are translucient...in the city.. buts thats usually where one
Finds streets... in a city.
Outside a city one finds many other things and places.
You wish to use only scripture..then your purception will be limited to the letter therin.
If you refuse further testimony of those that have seen... that does not automatically make their
Testimony false ...it justs makes you an individual who refuses their testimony.

You have prejudged the references i suggested you read... which is rather a poor basis upon which to judge anything.

 

[98cwitr]

Not sure what the issue is.
We hear of streets so pure they are translucient...in the city.. buts thats usually where one
Finds streets... in a city.
Outside a city one finds many other things and places.
You wish to use only scripture..then your purception will be limited to the letter therin.
If you refuse further testimony of those that have seen... that does not automatically make their
Testimony false ...it justs makes you an individual who refuses their testimony.

You have prejudged the references i suggested you read... which is rather a poor basis upon which to judge anything.

Is that the New Jerusalem that came from heaven or the new heaven itself though?

 

[Avid]

Not sure what the issue is.

Issue is that we often / always hear the description of New Jerusalem, a city that will come down from the New Heaven onto the New Earth some time in the future, but not the description of Heaven, God's abode. Just wondering if ANYONE has read any of these scriptures! I hear of people doing extensive reading, but why never see the description of Heaven in the Bible?

We hear of streets so pure they are translucient...in the city.. buts thats usually where one
Finds streets... in a city.
Outside a city one finds many other things and places.

YES, Absolutely the description of a city, that great City, the holy city, New Jerusalem that will come down out of the New Heaven onto the New Earth after the day of restitution of all things.

You wish to use only scripture..then your purception will be limited to the letter therin.
If you refuse further testimony of those that have seen... that does not automatically make their
Testimony false ...it justs makes you an individual who refuses their testimony.

Don't have a problem with anything you are accusing me of here, as I plead guilty on all accounts. Drug addled people may imagine they have sat on a cloud... Spoke to one who walked up to our pastor and me outside of Church one day. Bus stop is across the street. He had all kinds of ideas of floating on clouds, etc.

Our pastor has mentioned many times of wicked people talking about being on the Operating Table, and seeing a bright light. He told them, "I saw it too! It illuminated the area they were cutting into your body, so doctors and surgeons could see what they were doing!"

You have prejudged the references i suggested you read... which is rather a poor basis upon which to judge anything.

Well you see, we have the word of Prophets and Apostles that seems to be judged as unworthy to even be read by almost everyone I have discussed these things with.

WHY would anyone say there are streets of Gold in Heaven (Bible does not say there are,) but they haven't mentioned the sea of Glass, clear as crystal, mingled with fire, of which there are a number of references?
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