Defending Protestant Theology.

[Neostarwcc]

That's my understanding also, FWIW.

If this is true than why is it a belief in Protestantism today? I always thought we got that belief from Luther.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Free will turns the gospel into law and grace into works = no works no salvation.

Agreed! That's like saying that God's work on the cross didn't make it possible to save all of humanity.

 

[Christ is Lord]

So what you're saying is that seal can be broken? But this goes against what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:22 when he said that this seal was a "guarantee" of our salvation. It would also go against many of the statements of eternal security that Christ & the apostles said. Especially John 6:37-40 when he said that he wouldn't lose a single believer.

I didn't mean to make this thread a debate about Eternal Security since there are so many threads already arguing this subject but, it kind of has to be brought up I guess.

Notice in those instances the assumption is that the person believes. That’s what makes you secure once you believe then you’re eternally secure. You can’t lose your salvation due to any sin because you didn’t gain it by not sinning in the first place. I’m sorry that we’re straying from the indeed topic.

 

[renniks]

I've yet to see a genuine believer go out and worship other god's though. That's just implied when we tell Christ/God "I accept you and only you for eternity."

How do you know who is a genuine believer?

 

[renniks]

Free will turns the gospel into law and grace into works = no works no salvation.

Faith is not a work.

 

[Albion]

If this is true than why is it a belief in Protestantism today? I always thought we got that belief from Luther.

It is a belief in some quarters of Protestantism today, but only some. Mainly among the minority that is part of the Reformed tradition.

 

[Dave L]

Faith is not a work.

If it is a condition you must meet, the gospel becomes law, and faith a work of the will.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Oh boy. I have a feeling were this thread is going to end up.

 

[Albion]

If it is a condition you must meet, the gospel becomes law, and faith a work of the will.

It may be necessary, but its still not a work.

 

[Dave L]

It may be necessary, but its still not a work.

It turns the gospel into law and makes obedience the work.

 

[childeye 2]

What's wrong with that argument? If you don't have the Holy Spirit than you can't be saved right? We both agree on this? Jesus tells us all about that to Nicodemus in Chapter 3 of the Gospel of John. To claim that they had the Holy Spirit at one point and then lost it goes against scripture because scripture as I said before, says that we are sealed and given the Holy Spirit for forever.

The only way it would be possible for a Christian to lose his salvation and the promises of Paul/Christ to be true is if a Christian has the Holy Spirit in hades. Which, of course I'm sure you're not claiming. You're claiming that they lose the Holy Spirit. But please, explain to me how that is possible because of the verses that I linked above in the OP.

Because if it is possible for us to lose the Holy Spirit than Christ, the Apostles, and the writer of Hebrews all lied when they said that salvation was once for all time.

Pardon my interjecting, but when reading your forthright sentiments, I came across, "The only way it would be possible for a Christian to lose his salvation and the promises of Paul/Christ to be true is if a Christian has the Holy Spirit in hades". These two scriptures then came to mind:
Psalm 139:7-8 King James Version (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Revelation 1:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;

 

[renniks]

If it is a condition you must meet, the gospel becomes law, and faith a work of the will.

If it's not a condition for salvation, you better get busy cutting a lot of verses out of your Bible.

 

[renniks]

It turns the gospel into law and makes obedience the work.

So, your alternative is fatalism. God does everything, we are just along for the ride? That is a belief based in humanistic philosophy.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Is responding to the gospel (i.e believing a “work”)? What do we mean it’s an “work” didn’t you have to do something?

EDIT: I’m just trying to understand the mindset of those that say it’s a “work”.

 

[Albion]

It turns the gospel into law and makes obedience the work.

No, it doesn't, but I suppose you are just going to come back with a statement that it does. Maybe this is simply another case of a person not knowing what works are, theologically speaking.

I have often heard people say that being baptised is a good work and therefore they are against it. Having to go to the church to allow oneself to be baptised may "take some work," to use the colloquial, but that's not what "works" are all about.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Notice in those instances the assumption is that the person believes. That’s what makes you secure once you believe then you’re eternally secure. You can’t lose your salvation due to any sin because you didn’t gain it by not sinning in the first place. I’m sorry that we’re straying from the indeed topic.

I mean we don't have to agree on every part of theology that's why various denominations exist but I disagree. I think the New Living translation puts Paul's meaning in a deeper light. Paul says in the New Living Translation:

2 Corinthians 1:22:

"and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us."

Notice Paul didn't say "If the person continues to believe." and he says that the Holy Spirit is given "as a guarantee for everything he has promised us" and what has God promised us throughout the Bible? Eternal forgiveness and Eternal life.

I mean, Protestants make the argument that the Holy Spirit keeps a believer in the faith and the majority of Christians say "If they lose their faith they can lose their salvation" but, this just isn't true IMO. That's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that once a person has salvation, nothing can take that salvation away.

A majority of the problems that Christians have with the doctrine of Eternal Security just isn't true. Just because a persons salvation is eternally secure does NOT give them the right or ability to sin as much as they want. Paul even addresses this in Romans somewhere (Again, forgive me for not linking directly where. I'm tired and have only been citing the scripture that I have been using from memory lol). He says basically "What say we then shall we go on sinning because we are no longer under the law but are under grace? By no means!". So... yeah... for a Protestant to claim that they believe the Bible to be inerrant and the only source of our doctrine and then to claim "You can live however you want." would make us massive hypocrites.

There are "Christians" that believe this about Eternal Security but they are GROSSLY mistaken. Btw, thanks for following me I followed you back!

 

[Neostarwcc]

No, it doesn't, but I suppose you are just going to come back with a statement that it does. Maybe this is simply another case of a person not knowing what works are, theologically speaking.

I have often heard people say that being baptised is a good work and therefore they are against it. Having to go to the church to allow oneself to be baptised may "take some work," to use the colloquial, but that's not what "works" are all about.

I'd disagree with those kinds of people. Yes, we are not saved by Baptism but should every Christian be baptized? Yes. Now whether or not infant baptism counts as a genuine method of baptism is up for debate.

 

[Dave L]

No, it doesn't, but I suppose you are just going to come back with a statement that it does. Maybe this is simply another case of a person not knowing what works are, theologically speaking.

I have often heard people say that being baptised is a good work and therefore they are against it. Having to go to the church to allow oneself to be baptised may "take some work," to use the colloquial, but that's not what "works" are all about.

If choosing to believe (obedience) is the condition, the gospel is now law which must be obeyed.

 

[Christ is Lord]

I mean, Protestants make the argument that the Holy Spirit keeps a believer in the faith and the majority of Christians say "If they lose their faith they can lose their salvation" but, this just isn't true IMO. That's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that once a person has salvation, nothing can take that salvation away.

While some Protestants believe that the Holy Spirits “keeps you believing” I think that’s an error to an extent. If we assume the Holy Spirit keeps you believing then that means you don’t have the freedom to reject. If the Spirit keeps you believing then why was the writer of Hebrews concern about members stop believing?

 

[Neostarwcc]

Pardon my interjecting, but when reading your forthright sentiments, I came across, "The only way it would be possible for a Christian to lose his salvation and the promises of Paul/Christ to be true is if a Christian has the Holy Spirit in hades". These two scriptures then came to mind:
Psalm 139:7-8 King James Version (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Revelation 1:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;

No feel free to interject into the conversation! That's what these forums are for! What you said is interesting. But, it seems highly illogical to me that the Holy Spirit would want to reside inside of a person sentenced to the lake of fire. Especially when the Bible says to save those who have the Holy Spirit for all time.