Defending Protestant Theology.

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You have 3 choices.

1) God alone saves people. = God gets all the glory.

2) People save themselves with God's help. = you get the glory and split the rest with God.

3) People save themselves. = you get all the glory.

Only one is true. And the other 2 present a false gospel and a false Christ.
 
Upvote 0

HatGuy

Some guy in a hat
Jun 9, 2014
1,008
786
Visit site
✟123,338.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here's a balanced overview on Luther re: loss of salvation - Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Did Luther Believe Salvation Can Be Lost?

There may be a chance he thought a Christian couldn't lose their salvation, but it seems there is less evidence for that (and Lutherans today believe you can lose it, through apostasy).

If this is true than why is it a belief in Protestantism today? I always thought we got that belief from Luther.

Luther is an interesting kettle of fish, and often is not fully Protestant as we think of Protestant today.

Remember, Luther was not Reformed. The Reformed were / are Calvinist. I think a distinction between Reformation theology and Reformed theology is a good distinction to make.

Also, if you define Protestantism broadly (it is a broad term), it's probably more Arminian than Calvinist.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here's a balanced overview on Luther re: loss of salvation - Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Did Luther Believe Salvation Can Be Lost?

There may be a chance he thought a Christian couldn't lose their salvation, but it seems there is less evidence for that (and Lutherans today believe you can lose it, through apostasy).



Luther is an interesting kettle of fish, and often is not fully Protestant as we think of Protestant today.

Remember, Luther was not Reformed. The Reformed were / are Calvinist. I think a distinction between Reformation theology and Reformed theology is a good distinction to make.

Also, if you define Protestantism broadly (it is a broad term), it's probably more Arminian than Calvinist.
Luther and Calvin were both Augustinians. Read Bondage of the Will by Luther and they were two peas in a pod.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But we don’t believe the gospel is law. We believe if you don’t accept the gospel then you can’t be saved.
this is legalism. People accept the gospel because they are saved.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sdowney717
Upvote 0

HatGuy

Some guy in a hat
Jun 9, 2014
1,008
786
Visit site
✟123,338.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Luther and Calvin were both Augustinians. Read Bondage of the Will by Luther and they were two peas in a pod.
Read it. Several times. Luther preached predestination, yes, but the evidence suggests he did not develop a perseverance doctrine like Calvin. Plenty of discussion of this on the net from reputable sources. I've already produced a source to help anyone look into it. I don't need to provide further proof to show that things are not always simple with Luther.

Which is why I like him.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Albion
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Read it. Several times. Luther preached predestination, yes, but the evidence suggests he did not develop a perseverance doctrine like Calvin. Plenty of discussion of this on the net from reputable sources. I've already produced a source to help anyone look into it. I don't need to provide further proof to show that things are not always simple with Luther.

Which is why I like him.
They you can find some differences, but they were birds of a feather.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,229
4,189
37
US
✟909,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Yes. The spirit dwelling in us is a sign that we are indeed saved. However, notice what is said in
Ephesians 1:13-14:

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Once again we see it’s about belief. What do you think happens when you stop believing in the gospel?

Such a thing is impossible because God and the apostles ALL promised ALL of Jesus's sheep a.k.a. believers eternal life. See John 6:37-40, John 10:27-29, and Hebrews 10:10 for just a few of these verses. If it were possible for a born again believer to leave the faith than how could God's word say over over over again that believers are secure? And how can Christ say in John 6:37-40 that he would not lose even a single one of them?

John 6:37-40:

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

I know what you're going to say "See! Jesus said those who believe in him which means a continual belief" but Jesus didn't JUST say that. He says in verse 39 "I shall lose NONE of ALL those he has given me." This means that not only is every born again believer saved, but that they will ALWAYS be saved and kept by God. Jesus will not lose a single one because it is God the Father's will that not a single one of them will be lost! And God the Father's will is ALWAYS accomplished.

John 10:27-29 tells us how God's sheep (A.k.a. believers) are eternally secure in God's hand and NOBODY can take them away. Not Satan, not themselves, nobody.

Just because we see believers everyday leaving the faith does NOT mean that they had the Holy Spirit in them or that they were saved in the first place. 99.9% of them have not represented Christ and only came to Jesus with a weak heart. They weren't willing to go "all in" for Christ. Hence, Christ never gave them the Holy Spirit. Those who have the Holy Spirit are saved, and they will always BE saved. There is no withdrawal of the Holy Spirit. Again, I repeat to say that the Holy Spirit withdraws himself from a born again believer just isn't scriptural at all and it makes Jesus a liar when he said that the Holy Spirit would reside in believers for forever. From the moment of their salvation up through the end of time, and beyond that. It also makes Jesus a liar when he said that not one of his sheep would ever be lost and when he said "I am the Gate. Whoever enters through me WILL be saved." he didn't say "Whoever enters through me but yet at a later date withdraws from the won't be saved." or anything else. If people want to call Jesus a liar, that's fine with me. But I for one believe what Christ and the Apostles said.

Think about it, if Christ even loses a single one of his sheep than he was nothing but a liar and a sinner and his claims to deity were false. Because it's not JUST in the book of John that he promises to keep his sheep for forever, it was taught by the apostles as well.
 
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,229
4,189
37
US
✟909,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
That’s a good observation I’ve asked myself this at times. However, the reason why I believe it is simply because it’s in his word even though I can’t explain how that’s possible.

There are theories. But none of us will ever know for sure until we are given our new bodies. Then everything will become clear to us again. We probably will know the answer someday.

My guess though, is that eternity is going to be such a state of bliss that, we won't ever want to sin again. And we already know the consequences of sin so no human including Adam and Eve who experienced sin in it's entirety will ever want to sin again now that God has removed them from us and humanity has learned from it's mistake.

Which might not fly because Adam and Eve and Lucifer experienced this same bliss yet, sinned. Honestly, it's a mystery. We can only believe God's promise at the moment because God keeps his promises always.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,229
4,189
37
US
✟909,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Here's a balanced overview on Luther re: loss of salvation - Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Did Luther Believe Salvation Can Be Lost?

There may be a chance he thought a Christian couldn't lose their salvation, but it seems there is less evidence for that (and Lutherans today believe you can lose it, through apostasy).



Luther is an interesting kettle of fish, and often is not fully Protestant as we think of Protestant today.

Remember, Luther was not Reformed. The Reformed were / are Calvinist. I think a distinction between Reformation theology and Reformed theology is a good distinction to make.

Also, if you define Protestantism broadly (it is a broad term), it's probably more Arminian than Calvinist.

Thanks for the article! I'll read it later and offer my comments on it. My wife and I are about to play a game together (she's telling me to get off of CF and pay attention to her because I've been on here literally since the moment I got up. Lol but I was MASSIVELY enjoying my time with you guys today so I don't really want to get off lol)

Anyway, I will make one quick comment though before I read the article. If Luther was not reformed and believed a lot of the stuff that the old church believed than how did the reformation even start? Wasn't it Luther that started the reformation because he didn't like the theology that the Catholic church and the Pope was giving off at the time?

*edit*

Game is down and many people are having problems logging in, so I'll read the article now.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not once God gives him enough light to choose.


“In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” John 1:4–5 (KJV 1900)
 
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,229
4,189
37
US
✟909,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Hmm apparently according to the article though Luther did believe in Perseverance of the Saints which is mostly what I've been arguing in this thread. So I guess I don't 100% agree with Luther but I do agree with the basics of what he said and taught. Including Perseverance of the Saints. I argue that a Christian cannot lose their salvation because God keeps a person saved throughout their life and those who do end up falling away were Godless people who never had Christ to begin with.

I just think that the church before hand and the church today (aside from the Protestants) believe that you can lose your salvation. But, to me this just isn't taught in scripture. Even in the "offending" parts. Because in the offending parts we also get statements of how a Christian believer is also eternally secure in Christ.

Idk to me, to claim that a Christian can lose their salvation is to say that Christ didn't do his part when he said "It is finished." and "From all those you have given me, I have lost none but the son of perdition" and Protestants argue that the Son of perdition didn't lose his salvation, he just merely didn't belong to Christ to begin with. Think about it though, the Bible says in all of the gospels that Judas wasn't a true believer and that he said a majority of the things that he did "for his own gain." he (like the Jews) expected a conquering messiah. And when it turned out that the messiah had to first die for mankind and THEN reappear as a conquering messiah. He/they just flipped and simply didn't believe. He had the chance at repentance, but he hung himself.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,696
5,613
Utah
✟713,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Okay so my wife and I were discussing last night about how the basic theologies of Protestantism were found in scripture and that we should make a topic defending it so, here it goes.

I don't need to defend Eternal security because there are already a bazillion threads on the issue at the moment and this thread would easily get to 100+ pages in a week but I would like to defend Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

First Sola Fide. The fact of the matter is Sola Fide wasn't just believed/taught by Luther and Protestants throughout history it was in fact, believed by the Early Church and the Apostles as well. Yes, even the Catholic Church. The very first pope, Pope Clement I believed in Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. The only difference is though, the Early church did not believe that we couldn't lose our salvation by a lack of faith and Luther defended and started the argument that we CANNOT lose our salvation for ANY reason. This particular belief did not start in the church until Luther (And it is argued that the apostles taught it but that it died with the church after they all died) but it is scriptural. Mainly because of these verses in scripture (John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29, John 5:24, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 21:7, Hebrews 10:10, 1 John 5:10-13, 1 Peter 1:4-5 & more.) Yes, even in Hebrews and John's letters where the so called "offending" verses were contained there were verses stating when you receive the Holy Spirit you receive it FOREVER and you HAVE eternal life FOREVER and were sanctified ONCE FOR ALL TIME even Christ himself said it (John 14:16). Peter said it, Paul said it (Ephesians 1:13-14, & Romans 8:9) John said it, The writer of Hebrews said it, the list just goes on and on.

So tell me, if we have the Holy Spirit for forever, and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation for forever, just how is it that we can lose our salvation again? Was the Early church and the church today who believes that you can lose your salvation by lack of faith trying to claim that the Holy Spirit will be living inside of us when we go to Hades, or the Lake of Fire? Because if they are, that sounds preposterous! How could this have been taught by the Early church?

So far there has not been a single viable argument that Christians who do believe that you can lose your salvation by a lack of faith or that Sola Fide is a false doctrine can come up with that has satisfied Protestants or really anybody else capable of reading and applying the Bible as a whole (and we've been fighting about these topics for over 500 years now). However, Protestants can explain each and every offending verse in scripture because otherwise the Reformation would have died years and years ago since we believe in Sola Scriptura as well which, I'll get to in a moment. So, after saying all of this why is it that Protestants and Luther aren't right about scripture again? Especially when literally ALL of our basic teachings are taught THROUGHOUT the Bible? Just because our church is divided by people who are pro abortion, pro gay rights, pro women pastors, pro feminism, and other minor issues does NOT mean that we don't agree with each other on these basic points and it does NOT mean that Protestantism is a false church or w/e other Christians who disagree with the Reformation claim it to be. It also doesn't mean that those of us Protestants that do believe in Sola Scriptura should NOT defend the Bible say that those particular beliefs are WRONG and against God because the Bible teaches that they are from Genesis to Revelation.


Now that we've covered the part of Sola Fide that says that you cannot lose your salvation let's take a look at what the Bible says salvation even is. The Bible says that salvation is by grace through faith (Romans 4:1-25, Romans 3:28, Ephesians 2:8-10, Acts 16:31, John 3:16, 1 John 5:10-13, Philippians 3:9, John 5:24, to name a few)

While it's true that the words faith alone are never stated anywhere in the Bible it is implied throughout scripture. Nowhere in scripture does it say that we are saved by our faith + works, or by our faith + baptism or by our faith + anything. The Bible just says faith. When Paul was asked by the Jailer "Sir, what must I do to be saved?" notice Paul didn't say "You have to be baptized or you have to do good works...etc" he said "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household."

In Romans 10:13 Paul states that EVERYONE who calls upon the name of the Lord WILL be saved and this matches up with what Christ says in John 6:37 where Christ promises not to cast a SINGLE person out.

When the thief on the cross was saved by Christ, he was saved by his faith. He didn't have a chance to do any works or baptism because he was condemned to death along with Jesus. Yet, he is with Christ right now from the moment he died over 2,000 years ago to this very moment. And he will be with Christ, FOR FOREVER.

The words "Holy Trinity" are also not contained in the Bible but yet that has been a mainstream belief among Christians for a REALLY long time now. That doesn't necessarily mean that the doctrine of the Trinity is wrong. There is plenty of evidence supporting the Holy Trinity. Just like there is plenty of evidence supporting Sola Fide.

We ARE saved by our faith alone but the faith that saves, is never alone. It will ALWAYS have works and obedience. When we were saved we dedicated our lives to Christ and God's will for our lives not our own.

Second Sola Scriptura. The main argument that Luther had against the Catholic church was that how can we claim to follow God yet, not follow God's word but the words of a Pope who can be corrupted? The word of God on the other hand, cannot be corrupted because every person who has written scripture was carried along by the Holy Spirit and it is in fact, inerrant. Both Paul and Peter said it in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 & 2 Peter 1:21. So why is it that we should obey the doctrine of man and the "changing times" when scripture should be the #1 source of our theology. It's true, each Christian denomination has a separate interpretation of scripture but the fact of the matter is, that ALL Christians should go to the word of God FIRST and ONLY before they obey the doctrines of men. Even Paul (and Christ) warned us not to be conformed to this world (Romans 12:2 & John 17:16). The world has been evil from the beginning and many evil and Godless things are being "allowed" into this world ever since the beginning of time. So why take your theology from the world when the word of God cannot become corrupted?

Oh I realize that there are now Bibles that have been corrupted to say that homosexual marriage is "okay" and abortion is "okay" and divorce ...etc is "okay" but when you translate/look at the Bible as a whole and use 99.9% of the English translations of the Bible they ALL state that they are in fact, not okay.

Yet, he (the thief on the cross) is with Christ right now from the moment he died over 2,000 years ago to this very moment.

Nope ... Jesus himself did not ascend into heaven until 40 days after his resurrection.

Acts 1

He (Jesus) was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles He had chosen. 3After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,229
4,189
37
US
✟909,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Nope ... Jesus himself did not ascend into heaven until 40 days after his resurrection.

Acts 1

He (Jesus) was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles He had chosen. 3After His suffering, He presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Yes. But Jesus also said "today you will be with me in paradise." Which means that his spirit was in heaven. That or hes capable of being in two places at once. After all he IS God in the flesh and can do it anything.
 
Upvote 0