Defending Protestant Theology.

[Dave L]

So, your alternative is fatalism. God does everything, we are just along for the ride? That is a belief based in humanistic philosophy.

No, we are like comatose patients. And God feeds us bringing us back to life. We then naturally love and believe in him. But comatose patients cannot do anything until after God restores them to life.

 

[Dave L]

If it's not a condition for salvation, you better get busy cutting a lot of verses out of your Bible.

You are reading free will into scripture. It's not there.

 

[Neostarwcc]

While some Protestants believe that the Holy Spirits “keeps you believing” I think that’s an error to an extent. If we assume the Holy Spirit keeps you believing then that means you don’t have the freedom to reject. If the Spirit keeps you believing then why was the writer of Hebrews concern about members stop believing?

Honestly? I couldn't leave the faith if I even wanted to because God is keeping me in his eternal grip. Can you? I'm not saying this to test you but examine yourself. You made a lifelong commitment to Christ right? You have the Holy Spirit living within you correct? Can you leave the faith if you wanted to? I'm being serious. Examine that for a second.

I mean, here's another mystery that's relevant to our conversation. God has promised that no sin will EVER happen again after he recreates the world. Yet it is commonly taught that we have free will to interject against God and choose to sin again. What's stopping us from sinning? Adam and Eve were created perfect yet, they sinned so this cannot be why. What's stopping us from sinning ever again or from an Angel wanting power again like Lucifer did? Or from ANY other of God's future creations from EVER sinning again?

God can see throughout eternity because God knows all. We WILL never sin again and sin will NOT ever exist again for ALL of eternity. But, what's stopping us? We have free will as do the angels and all of the other possible future creations of God.

The same kind of goes for the believer who will never leave Christ. We have the free will to leave but, we never will and even if we tried, we couldn't because God would bring us back.

 

[Christ is Lord]

I think the New Living translation puts Paul's meaning in a deeper light. Paul says in the New Living Translation:

2 Corinthians 1:22:

"and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us."

Yes. The spirit dwelling in us is a sign that we are indeed saved. However, notice what is said in
Ephesians 1:13-14:

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Once again we see it’s about belief. What do you think happens when you stop believing in the gospel?

 

[Christ is Lord]

I mean, here's another mystery that's relevant to our conversation. God has promised that no sin will EVER happen again after he recreates the world. Yet it is commonly taught that we have free will to interject against God and choose to sin again. What's stopping us from sinning? Adam and Eve were created perfect yet, they sinned so this cannot be why. What's stopping us from sinning ever again or from an Angel wanting power again like Lucifer did? Or from ANY other of God's future creations from EVER sinning again?

That’s a good observation I’ve asked myself this at times. However, the reason why I believe it is simply because it’s in his word even though I can’t explain how that’s possible.

 

[renniks]

No, we are like comatose patients. And God feeds us bringing us back to life. We then naturally love and believe in him. But comatose patients cannot do anything until after God restores them to life.

But only because God made us comatose by irresistibly causing the devil to tempt Adam and Eve to sin... That's how Calvinism works. At its core it's just fatalism by another name.

 

[renniks]

You are reading free will into scripture. It's not there.

Actually it's everywhere in scripture. Starting with Genesis.

 

[Christ is Lord]

Actually it's everywhere in scripture. Starting with Genesis.

Exactly. Why would God tell us not to do something “eat of the tree” if we couldn’t do it? We had a choice.

 

[Dave L]

Actually it's everywhere in scripture. Starting with Genesis.

Law works on free will in the OT. But the gospel does not.

 

[Dave L]

But only because God made us comatose by irresistibly causing the devil to tempt Adam and Eve to sin... That's how Calvinism works. At its core it's just fatalism by another name.

Are you implying that if Calvinism is true, you hate God and worship an idol in his name?

 

[Christ is Lord]

Law works on free will in the OT. But the gospel does not.

So in the OT people had free will but now they do not? You said free will is something that isn’t found in the Bible but by your own words you just implied it’s in the OT.

 

[Dave L]

So in the OT people had free will but now they do not? You said free will is something that isn’t found in the Bible but my own words you just implied it’s in the OT.

Free will to obey law just as today. But the gospel is not law.

 

[renniks]

Free will to obey law just as today. But the gospel is not law.

You need to make up your mind. First you say it's not in the Bible, now it is...

 

[Dave L]

You need to make up your mind. First you say it's not in the Bible, now it is...

Sinners are free to sin. But only Christians are free not to sin.

 

[renniks]

Sinners are free to sin. But only Christians are free not to sin.

Which doesn't eliminate free will at all. The sinner can still choose freely to follow the Spirit and become a Believer, and the believer can choose to follow his flesh and possibly fall away.

 

[Dave L]

Which doesn't eliminate free will at all. The sinner can still choose freely to follow the Spirit and become a Believer, and the believer can choose to follow his flesh and possibly fall away.

The sinner hates God and chooses only idols to worship in his name.

 

[Albion]

If choosing to believe (obedience) is the condition, the gospel is now law which must be obeyed.

Yes, but that doesn't make doing it be a "good work" that some people (not you and I) believe contributes to their prospects for salvation. It is rather, as you said, an obligation.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, but that doesn't make doing it be a "good work" that some people (not you and I) believe contributes to their prospects for salvation. It is rather, as you said, an obligation.

It still turn grace into law.

 

[Albion]

It still turn grace into law.

Very well, you have covered grace and law...not works.

 

[Dave L]

Very well, you have covered grace and law...not works.

works = obedience to a false gospel perceived as law.