Defending Protestant Theology.

[Christ is Lord]

2. nobody in the NT was saying "lets not read any of the NT letters until someone comes along a few hundred years from now to tell us what to read"

While that maybe true most people don't have the entire NT as have it today in their possession either.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Romans 11:17-23 who does the grafting in to the olive tree? Who does the breaking off from the olive tree?

The “olive tree” in the above passage is symbolic, it represents something else, I think we can both agree on this yes? Given the overall context of Romans 9, 10, and 11 that is, the context of God’s covenants with the Israelites – it appears that the various parts of the olive tree represent the following:

– The “natural branches” represent individual Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews.

– The “wild olive shoots” represent the Gentiles.

– The root of the tree represents God’s covenant promises to the patriarchs – Abraham, Issac and Jacob.



Interestingly, the “olive tree” metaphor for Israel is used in other places as well. For example, consider this verse – in which Jeremiah addresses the Israelites:

Jeremiah 11:16 (ESV):

16 The Lord once called you ‘a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit.’ But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.


Having said this, in Romans 11:17-23 Paul tell us that some of the natural branches of the olive tree were broken off because of their unbelief. This implies that some Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews – have been excluded from God’s covenant with the patriarchs, because of their lack of faith in God and their rejection of the gospel.

Christ used this symbology as well in John 15:6.

Notice nowhere in the gospels has Christ EVER said that a true believer could lose faith. In fact he says of the people who do fall away in Luke 8:13 that they believed for a while but then stopped believing "because they had no root." . This is further backed up by John himself when he says in 1 John 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

In other words, they NEVER had the Holy Spirit and were born again in the first place. Those who have the Holy Spirit, have it for forever (John 14:16), remain in the faith for forever (1 John 2:19), are sealed with a permanent seal that cannot be broken (1 Corinthians 1:22, & Ephesians 4:30), and are saved for all time (1 Peter 1:4-5, John 6:37-40, John 10:27-29, Revelation 3:5, Romans 8:1 & more).

Tell me if they who overcome (And we read in the Bible who they who overcome are in 1 John 4:4 & 1 Corinthians 15:57) are NEVER erased from the book of life according to Jesus in Revelation 3:5 how possibly can they fall from grace? When God's word says that those who have their names in the book of life will not perish in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:27).

 

[Neostarwcc]

interesting that this thread ( Why reject OSAS ? Because the Bible does not support it.? or..? ) shows the Bible texts which prove you can't sustain OSAS sola scriptura



There is no "Christ lied" in the Bible texts that we find at that thread... we simply do not insert extreme inference to the point of making a contradiction where there is none to start with.

scriptures are always right - but loading them up with a lot of inference to the point that they are made to contradict something else can be a problem

Yes, and I answered the verses in that thread that apparently claim that it's not true and you (or anyone else for that matter) never replied to me. It's one thing to claim that your verses support your beliefs and another thing to opose the defenses made by other religious denominations. Probably because, you have no defense. Scripture is clear, those who have the Holy Spirit cannot fall from grace. Christ taught it , the apostles taught it (including but not limited to Paul), the writer of hebrews taught it, the list just goes on and on. I've provided MANY verses in both topics and so far, you have not even so much given me one scripture in defense of the other side.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, and I answered the verses in that thread that apparently claim that it's not true and you (or anyone else for that matter) never replied to me.

I missed your reply - do you remember the post number?

I take that back I did see your posts most of them the talk about protestants being free to "differ" with each other, or give "other texts" not in the OP. neither of which is a response to the actual texts in the OP.

I respond to you -
Saturday at 8:53 AM #54
Saturday at 8:58 AM #55
Saturday at 9:07 AM #56
Saturday at 9:13 AM #57
Saturday at 5:46 PM #61



You then have this - where you simply link to other websites that also do not address the texts in the OP
Saturday at 9:17 AM #58

And I respond to you
Saturday at 5:53 PM #64
Saturday at 5:57 PM #66

Where I also point out that "none of those links address the texts in the OP that show "the problem" for OSAS when it comes to "sola scriptura" testing."

So I am puzzled by your statement here "I answered the verses in that thread" - is there a post in that thread where you look at and respond to the OP texts??

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm sorry did you think that I was trying to claim that everyone was saved because of John 6:39? From your response I think that you interpreted my words that way. No, I did not mean to claim that everyone is saved (I definitely do NOT believe in Universalism) or that everyone who comes to Christ is saved, even. Like I've said in this thread many times before a saving faith is a faith that's never alone. It's a faith of action. When I came to Christ I literally made sure I went "all in". That meant that not only was a willing to completely abandon my old life (Which, was not a good life at all. So it wasn't much of a sacrifice) and start a new one with him, but also I wanted to make SURE that if I really went to Christ that I would be willing to make that commitment FOREVER. I weighed my options and decided that I would make a lifelong & eternal commitment to Christ. Despite not believing in God at the time and being a complete Atheist. (Yeah, figure that one out, Lol but it's the truth. I feel as if I didn't choose God though but rather that, God chose me.)

What I meant to claim is exactly what Christ's words were. Of all that God the Father gives him (Those that God as a whole chose since before they formed the earth which was everyone they foreknew would not only believe in Christ but be willing to go "all in" for him) God will lose NONE of those people. In other words, none of the people that God meant to save will end up being lost in the end. That is God the Father's will. Do we still agree with each other or do I need to be educated more? Lol!

No I understand you don’t believe in universalism friend what I’m saying is that Jesus did not say the He will lose nothing. He said God desires that He should lose nothing. Eternal security is a mistake friend. If eternal security were true then no one could fail to abide in Christ and The Father could not cut off branches who are in Christ for not bearing fruit. John 15:1-10

 

[BNR32FAN]

Having said this, in Romans 11:17-23 Paul tell us that some of the natural branches of the olive tree were broken off because of their unbelief. This implies that some Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews – have been excluded from God’s covenant with the patriarchs, because of their lack of faith in God and their rejection of the gospel.

You didn’t address all the verses between 17-23 here friend. The Gentiles who were grafted in by God are warned of being broken off for being conceited or for unbelief.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Christ used this symbology as well in John 15:6.

Notice nowhere in the gospels has Christ EVER said that a true believer could lose faith.

Both John 15:2 and John 15:6 Jesus is saying that true believers can lose their faith and their salvation. In John 15:2 Jesus specifically says The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit. In John 15:6 Jesus says anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. The word abide means to stay, remain, or continue. A person cannot stay or remain somewhere they have never been and they cannot continue something they have never begun. Both of these verses can only pertain to true believers. Not to mention that in verse 4 He says to His 11 faithful apostles abide in Me and I in you for without Me you can do nothing. Why would He tell them to abide in Him if they are incapable of failing to abide in Him? When you take into consideration who He is talking to and the full context of what He is saying you can see that He is warning His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to abide in Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

Who is they? Does this refer to all who fall from grace? “They” is referring to a particular group of people who were antichrists who were spreading lies about God. This does not pertain to everyone. If what your suggesting is true then no one could fail to abide in Christ and branches whom God has grafted into the olive tree (God’s covenant) could not be broken off for unbelief.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The “olive tree” in the above passage is symbolic, it represents something else, I think we can both agree on this yes? Given the overall context of Romans 9, 10, and 11 that is, the context of God’s covenants with the Israelites – it appears that the various parts of the olive tree represent the following:

– The “natural branches” represent individual Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews.

– The “wild olive shoots” represent the Gentiles.

– The root of the tree represents God’s covenant promises to the patriarchs – Abraham, Issac and Jacob.



Interestingly, the “olive tree” metaphor for Israel is used in other places as well. For example, consider this verse – in which Jeremiah addresses the Israelites:

Jeremiah 11:16 (ESV):

16 The Lord once called you ‘a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit.’ But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.


Having said this, in Romans 11:17-23 Paul tell us that some of the natural branches of the olive tree were broken off because of their unbelief. This implies that some Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews – have been excluded from God’s covenant with the patriarchs, because of their lack of faith in God and their rejection of the gospel.

Christ used this symbology as well in John 15:6.

Notice nowhere in the gospels has Christ EVER said that a true believer could lose faith. In fact he says of the people who do fall away in Luke 8:13 that they believed for a while but then stopped believing "because they had no root." . This is further backed up by John himself when he says in 1 John 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

In other words, they NEVER had the Holy Spirit and were born again in the first place. Those who have the Holy Spirit, have it for forever (John 14:16), remain in the faith for forever (1 John 2:19), are sealed with a permanent seal that cannot be broken (1 Corinthians 1:22, & Ephesians 4:30), and are saved for all time (1 Peter 1:4-5, John 6:37-40, John 10:27-29, Revelation 3:5, Romans 8:1 & more).

Tell me if they who overcome (And we read in the Bible who they who overcome are in 1 John 4:4 & 1 Corinthians 15:57) are NEVER erased from the book of life according to Jesus in Revelation 3:5 how possibly can they fall from grace? When God's word says that those who have their names in the book of life will not perish in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:27).

Yes we are forever sealed with the Holy Spirit but we are perfectly capable of grieving the Holy Spirit. Just because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean that we cannot lose our salvation. What good is the Holy Spirit if we do not follow His guidance. The Holy Spirit is what guides us in our walk with Christ. He is like a compass always pointing the way to God. He does not steer the boat. If we don’t pay attention we can easily find ourselves way off course.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The “olive tree” in the above passage is symbolic, it represents something else, I think we can both agree on this yes? Given the overall context of Romans 9, 10, and 11 that is, the context of God’s covenants with the Israelites – it appears that the various parts of the olive tree represent the following:

– The “natural branches” represent individual Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews.

– The “wild olive shoots” represent the Gentiles.

– The root of the tree represents God’s covenant promises to the patriarchs – Abraham, Issac and Jacob.



Interestingly, the “olive tree” metaphor for Israel is used in other places as well. For example, consider this verse – in which Jeremiah addresses the Israelites:

Jeremiah 11:16 (ESV):

16 The Lord once called you ‘a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit.’ But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.


Having said this, in Romans 11:17-23 Paul tell us that some of the natural branches of the olive tree were broken off because of their unbelief. This implies that some Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews – have been excluded from God’s covenant with the patriarchs, because of their lack of faith in God and their rejection of the gospel.

Christ used this symbology as well in John 15:6.

Notice nowhere in the gospels has Christ EVER said that a true believer could lose faith. In fact he says of the people who do fall away in Luke 8:13 that they believed for a while but then stopped believing "because they had no root." . This is further backed up by John himself when he says in 1 John 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

In other words, they NEVER had the Holy Spirit and were born again in the first place. Those who have the Holy Spirit, have it for forever (John 14:16), remain in the faith for forever (1 John 2:19), are sealed with a permanent seal that cannot be broken (1 Corinthians 1:22, & Ephesians 4:30), and are saved for all time (1 Peter 1:4-5, John 6:37-40, John 10:27-29, Revelation 3:5, Romans 8:1 & more).

Tell me if they who overcome (And we read in the Bible who they who overcome are in 1 John 4:4 & 1 Corinthians 15:57) are NEVER erased from the book of life according to Jesus in Revelation 3:5 how possibly can they fall from grace? When God's word says that those who have their names in the book of life will not perish in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:27).

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:3-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

i believe while we are still in this world we have the hope of salvation. We don’t actually receive salvation until we either die or at Jesus’ second coming. And Peter is saying that the inheritance we receive is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fade away not the hope of eternal life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The “olive tree” in the above passage is symbolic, it represents something else, I think we can both agree on this yes? Given the overall context of Romans 9, 10, and 11 that is, the context of God’s covenants with the Israelites – it appears that the various parts of the olive tree represent the following:

– The “natural branches” represent individual Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews.

– The “wild olive shoots” represent the Gentiles.

– The root of the tree represents God’s covenant promises to the patriarchs – Abraham, Issac and Jacob.



Interestingly, the “olive tree” metaphor for Israel is used in other places as well. For example, consider this verse – in which Jeremiah addresses the Israelites:

Jeremiah 11:16 (ESV):

16 The Lord once called you ‘a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit.’ But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.


Having said this, in Romans 11:17-23 Paul tell us that some of the natural branches of the olive tree were broken off because of their unbelief. This implies that some Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews – have been excluded from God’s covenant with the patriarchs, because of their lack of faith in God and their rejection of the gospel.

Christ used this symbology as well in John 15:6.

Notice nowhere in the gospels has Christ EVER said that a true believer could lose faith. In fact he says of the people who do fall away in Luke 8:13 that they believed for a while but then stopped believing "because they had no root." . This is further backed up by John himself when he says in 1 John 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

In other words, they NEVER had the Holy Spirit and were born again in the first place. Those who have the Holy Spirit, have it for forever (John 14:16), remain in the faith for forever (1 John 2:19), are sealed with a permanent seal that cannot be broken (1 Corinthians 1:22, & Ephesians 4:30), and are saved for all time (1 Peter 1:4-5, John 6:37-40, John 10:27-29, Revelation 3:5, Romans 8:1 & more).

Tell me if they who overcome (And we read in the Bible who they who overcome are in 1 John 4:4 & 1 Corinthians 15:57) are NEVER erased from the book of life according to Jesus in Revelation 3:5 how possibly can they fall from grace? When God's word says that those who have their names in the book of life will not perish in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:27).

About John 6:37-40.

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:37‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The Greek word érchomai which is translated to comes or cometh is only used in the present and imperfect tense. So those who presently and continuously come to Him He will not cast out.

cometh

G2064


Lemma:

ἔρχομαι


Transliteration:

érchomai


Pronounce:

el'-tho


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to come a) of persons

1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

2) metaph. a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto

3) to go, to follow one


Grammar:

middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) , or (active) , which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The “olive tree” in the above passage is symbolic, it represents something else, I think we can both agree on this yes? Given the overall context of Romans 9, 10, and 11 that is, the context of God’s covenants with the Israelites – it appears that the various parts of the olive tree represent the following:

– The “natural branches” represent individual Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews.

– The “wild olive shoots” represent the Gentiles.

– The root of the tree represents God’s covenant promises to the patriarchs – Abraham, Issac and Jacob.



Interestingly, the “olive tree” metaphor for Israel is used in other places as well. For example, consider this verse – in which Jeremiah addresses the Israelites:

Jeremiah 11:16 (ESV):

16 The Lord once called you ‘a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit.’ But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.


Having said this, in Romans 11:17-23 Paul tell us that some of the natural branches of the olive tree were broken off because of their unbelief. This implies that some Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews – have been excluded from God’s covenant with the patriarchs, because of their lack of faith in God and their rejection of the gospel.

Christ used this symbology as well in John 15:6.

Notice nowhere in the gospels has Christ EVER said that a true believer could lose faith. In fact he says of the people who do fall away in Luke 8:13 that they believed for a while but then stopped believing "because they had no root." . This is further backed up by John himself when he says in 1 John 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

In other words, they NEVER had the Holy Spirit and were born again in the first place. Those who have the Holy Spirit, have it for forever (John 14:16), remain in the faith for forever (1 John 2:19), are sealed with a permanent seal that cannot be broken (1 Corinthians 1:22, & Ephesians 4:30), and are saved for all time (1 Peter 1:4-5, John 6:37-40, John 10:27-29, Revelation 3:5, Romans 8:1 & more).

Tell me if they who overcome (And we read in the Bible who they who overcome are in 1 John 4:4 & 1 Corinthians 15:57) are NEVER erased from the book of life according to Jesus in Revelation 3:5 how possibly can they fall from grace? When God's word says that those who have their names in the book of life will not perish in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:27).

I would be surprised if you haven’t heard that John 10:29 is saying that no one can take away our salvation. There’s nothing anyone can do to take away our salvation except us. No one can snatch us from The Farher’s hand but we can certainly walk away from it or even be cast away by Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The “olive tree” in the above passage is symbolic, it represents something else, I think we can both agree on this yes? Given the overall context of Romans 9, 10, and 11 that is, the context of God’s covenants with the Israelites – it appears that the various parts of the olive tree represent the following:

– The “natural branches” represent individual Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews.

– The “wild olive shoots” represent the Gentiles.

– The root of the tree represents God’s covenant promises to the patriarchs – Abraham, Issac and Jacob.



Interestingly, the “olive tree” metaphor for Israel is used in other places as well. For example, consider this verse – in which Jeremiah addresses the Israelites:

Jeremiah 11:16 (ESV):

16 The Lord once called you ‘a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit.’ But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.


Having said this, in Romans 11:17-23 Paul tell us that some of the natural branches of the olive tree were broken off because of their unbelief. This implies that some Israelites – i.e., genetic Jews – have been excluded from God’s covenant with the patriarchs, because of their lack of faith in God and their rejection of the gospel.

Christ used this symbology as well in John 15:6.

Notice nowhere in the gospels has Christ EVER said that a true believer could lose faith. In fact he says of the people who do fall away in Luke 8:13 that they believed for a while but then stopped believing "because they had no root." . This is further backed up by John himself when he says in 1 John 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

In other words, they NEVER had the Holy Spirit and were born again in the first place. Those who have the Holy Spirit, have it for forever (John 14:16), remain in the faith for forever (1 John 2:19), are sealed with a permanent seal that cannot be broken (1 Corinthians 1:22, & Ephesians 4:30), and are saved for all time (1 Peter 1:4-5, John 6:37-40, John 10:27-29, Revelation 3:5, Romans 8:1 & more).

Tell me if they who overcome (And we read in the Bible who they who overcome are in 1 John 4:4 & 1 Corinthians 15:57) are NEVER erased from the book of life according to Jesus in Revelation 3:5 how possibly can they fall from grace? When God's word says that those who have their names in the book of life will not perish in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:27).

Revelation 3:5 Those who endure will not be blotted out of the book of life. I don’t see how this supports eternal security. This actually supports conditional salvation. We must endure (abide in Christ) to receive salvation. Personally I don’t believe anyone’s name will be blotted out or added to the book of life. I don’t believe the book of life will ever be edited from its original content written before creation. If it was written according to God’s foreknowledge then there would be no need to edit it.

Romans 8:1 Again this supports conditional salvation. We must be presently in Christ to receive salvation. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that anyone is saved because they once believed or had faith or were in Christ at one time.

 

[GingerBeer]

I would be surprised if you haven’t heard that John 10:29 is saying that no one can take away our salvation. There’s nothing anyone can do to take away our salvation except us.

Except us is probably right. Others cannot but we can seems to be a message often present in scripture.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I consider myself a Protestant, but have to admit that Protestant theology is based way too much on the writings of Paul and not nearly enough on what Jesus said in the Gospels.

Why is that?

How is it odd that churches would be interested in how the early church was setup and implemented the teachings of Jesus.

Seems to me that that is what we should be interested in