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Featured Defending Protestant Theology.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    What's wrong with that argument? If you don't have the Holy Spirit than you can't be saved right? We both agree on this? Jesus tells us all about that to Nicodemus in Chapter 3 of the Gospel of John. To claim that they had the Holy Spirit at one point and then lost it goes against scripture because scripture as I said before, says that we are sealed and given the Holy Spirit for forever.

    The only way it would be possible for a Christian to lose his salvation and the promises of Paul/Christ to be true is if a Christian has the Holy Spirit in hades. Which, of course I'm sure you're not claiming. You're claiming that they lose the Holy Spirit. But please, explain to me how that is possible because of the verses that I linked above in the OP.

    Because if it is possible for us to lose the Holy Spirit than Christ, the Apostles, and the writer of Hebrews all lied when they said that salvation was once for all time.
     
  2. Skittles

    Skittles New Member

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    While those believers are still “in the faith” and believe themselves to be saved....are they saved? If not then how does anyone know they have an assurance of salvation. Wouldn’t they all be deluding themselves unless they persevere in faith until the end?

    As to your description of Sola Fide - a faith that bears works is truly a saving faith. That is consistent with Catholic teaching. What isn’t consistent is the idea that just having intellectual faith (absent works that flow from that faith) saves you.

    Thanks for responding on the Clement quote - still missing how it supports Sola Scriptura.
     
  3. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    Yup, never meant to claim that there weren't some of us out there that claim differently. But, the majority of the church does believe and claim these basic Protestant beliefs.
     
  4. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Active Member

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    Salvation is always linked to belief. If you no longer believe and reject that you aren’t saved.
     
  5. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    I've yet to see a genuine believer go out and worship other god's though. That's just implied when we tell Christ/God "I accept you and only you for eternity."
     
  6. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    But, this doesn't wash. The people who quote on quote "no longer believe" never had the Holy Spirit to begin with because if they did it would reside in them for forever and it would seal them for all time.
     
  7. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Is a little right of Atilla the Hun Supporter

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    If you are referring to Carthage, Rome and Hippo in the fourth century recall those were local councils and not universally binding. The See of Rome did not make an ecumenical pronouncement until 1546 at Trent. Besides the "table of contents" argument is a poor argument because the church does not declare something to be scripture she merely recognizes that something is scripture.
     
  8. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is wrong with the argument? Lots of people who call themselves Christians sin willfully, most apparent, fornication. Scripture makes it clear this is a sin that will keep you out of the Body yet many who engage in sexual relations before marriage simply rely on "I am saved" so I do not have to worry about it. I know this first hand as I also sinned in this way until I repented. I know many other couples who do the same yet have not come to realization that they are being deceived by OSAS. You can continue to argue that these people are not saved at all however, this is a moot point as they think they are and would have difficulty repenting.
    Blessings
     
  9. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    They are being deceived by an erroneous understanding of OSAS that they picked up somewhere, not by OSAS itself.
     
  10. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Ironically, Jesus did not instruct us to depend on the scriptures for the Truth after He has left.

    He gave rather explicit instruction to depend on the Holy Spirit only for The Truth. Even St. John confirms this in the New Testament. This instruction is confirmed twice. - John 16:13 and 1 John 2:27

    Remember that the Word is God and the Word becoming flesh is Christ (John 1:1). And Jesus is the way, The Truth, and the life. And eventually comes back to us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

    Even though Apostle Paul said "All scriptures is good for teaching", Paul gave no explicit instruction to depend on it for the Truth.

    Indeed, the scriptures / Bible is good for teaching - it does tell us what to look for!


    Sadly, most Christians treat this other way around - they Think the Holy Spirit will point you back to the Bible. This isn't the case in reality....

    Why we have so many denominations, why so many divisions within Christianity??? There you go! We have undeniable facts to prove the majority have misused / used the Bible for the wrong reasons and have denied themselves the Truth.

    Worldly ways, worldly thoughts, the ways of the flesh is what makes one doubt the Holy Spirit and cannot see beyond the physical (like the physical Bible). Because the world opposes the Spirit.

    We can only cheer for one team, not two, you cannot serve two masters.
     
  11. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    That's a good question. A person can believe that they're saved and still not be saved you're right.

    In order to have assurance of salvation you have to for one, know that you're making an eternal commitment to Christ. My personal conversion, I feel like I didn't choose God, but God chose me. Because I was perfectly content with being miserable and stuck in my sin my entire life. If your life shows fruits of the spirit, another way to know that you have the Holy Spirit is if there is a general sense of Happiness in your life where there wasn't happiness before, you start being convicted of and repenting of your sins, you no longer live in sin, several things really. A majority of the cases of "Ex-Christians"

    Christ also put it this way in Luke 8:13:


    "Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

    While Christ doesn't directly say "They never had the Holy Spirit" he kind of implies it.

    I'm too tired right now to give Bible verses but there are plenty of verses in the Bible that talk about how you know for without a doubt that you are eternally saved.

    Like I said, salvation isn't as simple as "believing" and being done with it. It's a faith that is never alone. It will ALWAYS show works and obedience. If it is not immediate it will come over time. And most of all, they will notice a COMPLETE and total change of life. I told many people here about my previous life, right? About how bad of a person I was, about I basically had no remorse and didn't care for others ...etc. I know I have the Holy Spirit for two main reasons. For one, I actually saw Christ give me the Holy Spirit in a vision (But 99.99% of Christians don't get to experience that.), and for two, I've seen the DRASTIC change that my life has made since I accepted Christ. I cannot explain it, but I KNOW that I will have faith for the rest of my life and I KNOW that nothing will separate me from that faith. I couldn't even leave Christ if I WANTED to. Hence his statements in John 10:27-29 making sense.

    These examples of Christians who have left the faith never fully believed because if they did they would have shown examples of fruits of the spirit, they would have naturally had good works as God , they would have been happy with their lives, they would have been convicted of their sins (Let's face it a majority of them actually LIVED in their sin and had no remorse over their sins at all), they tend to blame God for all of their problems and cannot understand how God can be love and do all of these "horrible" things. The list just goes on and on.

    I never claimed it supported Sola Scriptura but hasn't that been a Catholic belief for like forever? You believe the word of God to be the word of God right? So why not go by scripture alone? It seems the early popes thought that way. Peter certainly did if it's true that he was a pope.
     
  12. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    But it's widely accepted that Scripture was mostly written by the Holy Spirit, yes? Or those who were under guidance of the Holy Spirit anyway.

    But, I do agree with you that Christians should be listening to the guidance of the Holy Spirit as he leads them into sanctification. Sola Scriptura doesn't deny this fact it just states that a majority of our doctrine should come from scripture as it is the very word of God and is taught through the entirety of it to be inerrant.

    When Christ was being tempted by the Devil he used the word of God to overcome those temptations. The same goes with us, really.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I don't know that that is correct. Jesus referred to the Scriptures on a number of occasions in order to prove some point of doctrine or moral behavior.
     
  14. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Active Member

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    Yeah. We’re sealed once we continue to believe this is why the author of Hebrews was so concerned about continual belief.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  15. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    Yes but it's not just me that doesn't call these people "not Christians" It's Luther as well as his main points of Sola Fide was that while we were saved by Faith alone the faith that saves was never alone. He was VERY clear on this and Protestants who claim to follow Luther yet don't follow this very basic teaching of his in my opinion, not a Protestant. That or a minority. They're not only protestants but they aren't true Christians. Christ even says that he desires his followers to be "all in" in multiple parts of the gospel.

    When a person accepts Christ they accept ALL of Christ that comes with it. The willingness to completely and totally leave their old lives behind and begin a new life with Christ, the willingness to obey with what God wants for their lives and not what they personally want for their lives, the list just goes on and on.

    Just because I believe that Protestants and Luther have the right interpretation of scripture does not mean that I cannot accept that there are not Christians of many other beliefs that are still genuinely saved. You don't have to be a Protestant to be saved despite what some Protestant preachers preach.

    When I accepted Christ I went "all in" and I believe that every Christian should be "all in". This is the kind of faith that saves. Whether you are a Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or... whatever random denomination of Christianity if you went "all in" for Christ than you are saved. Period. Done and nothing can take your salvation away. Period.

    Otherwise, there is no salvation and you are not a true born again Christian. But, that's just my opinion.
     
  16. HatGuy

    HatGuy Some guy in a hat

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    I'm a big fan of sola fide, but FYI, this is factually untrue. Luther did believe you could lose your salvation through walking away from faith. (But you don't lose it as a result of sin).
     
  17. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    Really? I wasn't aware of this. Mind posting an article?
     
  18. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Free will turns the gospel into law and grace into works = no works no salvation.
     
  19. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That's my understanding also, FWIW.
     
  20. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    So what you're saying is that seal can be broken? But this goes against what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:22 when he said that this seal was a "guarantee" of our salvation. It would also go against many of the statements of eternal security that Christ & the apostles said. Especially John 6:37-40 when he said that he wouldn't lose a single believer.

    I didn't mean to make this thread a debate about Eternal Security since there are so many threads already arguing this subject but, it kind of has to be brought up I guess.
     
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