Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

[seventysevens]

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Christ is the heir of all things.

He is therefore the heir of that piece of real estate.

Pardon me if I missed something during the back and forth in your discussion about the land of Israel , but the Lord who created all the heavens and earth; everything belongs to him in ownership even yourselves if you have obtained salvation through Christ.
I recall reading that the land of Israel given to Abraham and all his descendants was much much larger than it is now and it included part of Egypt and would be restored to Israel when Christ returns . This was in some really really old books when I was very young and it showed the borders of what it used to be and what it would be in the future, anyways can someone clarify what the point is that you all are driving at ? Thanks
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
9 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[mnorian]

Mod hat on

Thread has been cleaned up of multiple flaming.
please do not address your post to the character of the poster but to the content.
Carry on. ​

 

[jgr]

what the point is that you all are driving at ?

To answer the question: Under God's New Will and Testament, is Christ the Heir, or is Israel the heir; of God's Old Will and Testament promises to Israel?


In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ.

The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following, or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

We see the new promissory clauses of God's New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

and other scriptures. In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

Additional promissory clauses in:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.


But there are no promissory clauses for anyone who is not in Christ.

 

[seventysevens]

To answer the question: Under God's New Will and Testament, is Christ the Heir, or is Israel the heir; of God's Old Will and Testament promises to Israel?
In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ.
The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following, or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

We see the new promissory clauses of God's New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

and other scriptures. In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

Additional promissory clauses in:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.
But there are no promissory clauses for anyone who is not in Christ

When God gave the OT Law ie 10 commandments- the purpose is to make mankind realize that man cannot achieve true success without God; that God is in the control seat and faith in Him is what matters.

We do not see the scripture stating that God revoked the OT Law but we do see that Christ Jesus said that he did not come to revoke/take away/abolish the law but rather he came to fulfill the law as mankind is not able to do so.
He who continues to strive to follow the law exclusively is in bondage to the law for the intent of the law is to show mankind of their sinful condition. The law was given because of the transgressions of mankind. The Pharisees studied the law and became corrupted and unrighteous in their pride which is why Jesus railed on them calling them whitewashed tombs and hypocrites.
There is a difference between what the law requires and the promises that are given and received in faith in the Christ.

Throughout the OT the prophecies were given that the messiah would come - Messiah=Christ=Thee Chosen One. The messiah that was promised to come is the Christ , The reason the Jews of Jesus time rejected Christ is the same as the reason Jews of today that reject Christ as messiah is they did not accept that their messiah would come as a sacrifice first and then to power and great glory even though the OT scriptures clearly speak of the messiah coming as a sacrifice so that they who believe on him will receive eternal life.

The process is more like the stages of the butterfly , before we see the beautiful butterfly it first must go through the stages that God designed it to go through egg/larva-caterpillar/pupa then adult before the final process is complete. There is a fallacy that if a person is born a Jew bloodline they automatically receive eternal life in Gods kingdom. It is for that reason that there will be some Jews that perish when Christ returns as they reject Christ as messiah as well there are gentiles who reject Christ as God but there will also be people of both groups that will be saved as they accept Christ as God
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Quasar92]

Hello, I am a 19-year-old fellow Christian, and I have plenty of concerns regarding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PTR).

Scroll down for TL;DR.

Some of my favorite bible teachers, and preachers believe in the PTR. I never had a strong belief in it, but always kind of assumed it did exist, mostly because of the Left Behind movies/books, and the people I listened to. I like studying end times prophecy, and so, upon doing my own research, I started to doubt it's existence. I think that PTR believers' interpretation of Revelation is fairly accurate, with the coming Beast and tribulation (however, I'm not sure it's going to be exactly seven years long, because Revelation isn't specific enough), but I don't see any evidence that Christians will be raptured out to avoid it.

Anyways, let's get to the point...
I have seen many people argue for, and against the PTR, but I think that most people just bicker, and I have yet to see any intelligent debate concerning the PTR. Most people from both sides seem to have their go-to questions that just get annoying, and no question from either side seem to bring anything valuable into question. I personally don't believe in the PTR. I don't think that there is near enough evidence for it, and think that it's illogical to believe in it. I, however, may be missing something that most people don't mention, and so that's why I want to debate it here. I am very open to the idea of it, but can't find evidence myself.

The things I hear the most are as follows:

Those against the PTR (here after referred to as, "anti-PTRs") say,
"The word, 'Rapture' is never in the bible."
"The Rapture doctrine has only been around for a few hundred years."

Those who believe in the PTR (here after referred to as, "PTRs") quote,
1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17
1 Corinthians 15:51-53

I, someone who is open to both sides, see these arguments and my problems with this are as follows:

The anti-PTRs shouldn't care about the word itself. Who cares if it is ever mentioned by name or not? Question what the bible says about it. Most PTRs openly say that 'rapture' is a man given name that comes from Greek and Latin words that are in the bible. The word, "Trinity" is never in the bible, but the bible is very explicit about the existence of it, and the word,
"Godhead" is in the bible. 'Trinity' is a man given word that explains the split person of God.
Since the rapture is recent doctrine, one should look at it very skeptically, but it doesn't mean you should just toss it out immediately! You're saying that every mystery of the bible has already been revealed, and anyone who finds something new is making something up? It may be likely, but it isn't a sure thing. Just look at the sign of Revelation 12 that took place in the sky last September. No one ever thought that that was referring to the stars until they looked up and saw what was going on (I'm not saying that the Sept 23rd sign is definitely of sure significance, but I do think that Jesus wants our attention. It's a little hard to completely dismiss). A lot of the anti-PTRs are Calvanists, at least most I know, and Calvanism introduced tons of doctrines just a few hundreds years before the rapture doctrine. (I don't personally believe in Calvanism, but we'll talk about that another day.)

The PTRs can't use just those two verse, because they don't explicitly say anything about the tribulation. Both refer to the second coming of Jesus Christ, but neither say that their will be a rapture before the Beast's appearance, or that Christians will be spared from God's wrath. 1 Thess. refers to going up to meet God, but never mentions that we will be caught up before the tribulation. It only says that being caught up will be involved when Jesus comes back. 1 Cor. says that we will have to be changed in order to enter Heaven. Paul is saying that our bodies aren't just going to stop aging, but instead our bodies will have to be changed in order to be 'imperishable', and 'immortal'. This happens to the dead bodies as well. The souls of the dead will come back to claim their bodies once again, but before going back into Heaven they will have to be perfect bodies, not piles of dust, or half-decomposed skeletons. It makes no sense to me that people take these verses in 1 Cor., and say that this means that every Christian on earth will all of the sudden disappear leaving behind their clothes (some say blood as well), and everyone left on earth is going to be stuck dodging empty cars. I mean, come on...where are you getting that from?!

Too Long; Didn't Read:
Those for, and those against the Pre-Trib Rapture, just seem to bicker, and never any intelligent debate. They both seem to be very stubborn, and those for the PTR, don't provide any logical evidence.

So, my request for you, is that can you please tell me why people believe in the PTR, and allow me to possibly debate you? Or, if you are anti-PTR, like me, if there is any scripture that sheds a little extra light on the situation that I don't know, that would be greatly appreciated, or if you have anything else you'd like to add about why the PTR is false.
I'm open to any other debate about anything else you have to say regarding the rapture. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, and you'd like to point it out to me, or maybe you have a view that disagrees with both sides (I know that are a lot of different theories about the end times, so let's constrict this to viewpoints concerning the PTR, not the second coming in general).

Thanks in advance for your replies! I appreciate your opinion.
In Christ, Matt

The seven years of tribulation originate in the 70th Week of Daniel, in 9:27, that is a seven year period of time, abut the tribulation Israel is decreed to go through.

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

From the four post link posted below:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92

 

[keras]

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

What IS crystal clear about this prophecy, is that the meeting with the Lord is NOT in heaven.

People who have difficulty with the controversy over whether the 'rapture to heaven' is pre, mid or post tribulation, should know that all this nonsense can be attributed to the author of confusion and the father of lies.
There is no 'rapture to heaven' for any human. Jesus says so: John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

 

[Quasar92]

What IS crystal clear about this prophecy, is that the meeting with the Lord is NOT in heaven.

People who have difficulty with the controversy over whether the 'rapture to heaven' is pre, mid or post tribulation, should know that all this nonsense can be attributed to the author of confusion and the father of lies.
There is no 'rapture to heaven' for any human. Jesus says so: John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

The Scriptural verification of the Church being CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED to heaven by Jesus in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:10-17; 2 Thess.2:3, 7-8, is confirmed in Rev.4:1-2 and 19:7-8, where the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus takes place in heaven while the tribulation takes place on earth. Followed in verse 14, when Jesus returns WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven. From which, all of the above refute you, in addition to my post #486.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

The Scriptural verification of the Church being CAUGHT UO/RAPTURED to heaven by Jesus in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:10-17; 2 Thess.2:3, 7-8, is confirmed in Rev.4:1-2 and 19:7-8, where the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus takes place in heaven while the tribulation takes place on earth. Followed in verse 14, when Jesus returns WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven. From which, all of the above refute you, in addition to my post #486.


Quasar92

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



Heb 12:22　 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.　
　

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[Quasar92]

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



Heb 12:22　 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.　
　

.

Your above response in the above, to my post #488, is a prime example of your attempt to use Scripture pertaining to the context of other issues entirely, in an attempt to sweep what the Scriptures are really saying, under the carpet. Your quotes from Heb.12:22and 23, pertain to the New Jerusalem in the NEXT AGE. It has nothing whatever to do with what I wrote in #488 that follows:

>>>The Scriptural verification of the Church being CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED to heaven by Jesus in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:10-17; 2 Thess.2:3, 7-8, is confirmed in Rev.4:1-2 and 19:7-8, where the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus takes place in heaven while the tribulation takes place on earth. Followed in verse 14, when Jesus returns WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven. From which, all of the above refute you, in addition to my post #486.<<<

Let me see you field a response in denial of that.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Let me see you field a response in denial of that.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.　


A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

This one verse kills the pretrib doctrine.


Jesus "descends" from heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.

The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5 on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16 it is clearly a Second Coming event.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that the two chapters are connected, along with the word "But" at the beginning of chapter 5.

Your pre-trib doctrine and the Two People of God doctrine only works by ignoring the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
Notice the present tense in Hebrews 8:6, which again destroys your whole system of interpretation.

Look on YouTube and show us how many Dispensationalists have ever given a sermon on the New Covenant.

Why not? Because it destroys their system...

.

 

[Quasar92]

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.　


A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

This one verse kills the pretrib doctrine.


Jesus "descends" from heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.

The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5 on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16 it is clearly a Second Coming event.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that the two chapters are connected, along with the word "But" at the beginning of chapter 5.

Your pre-trib doctrine and the Two People of God doctrine only works by ignoring the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
Notice the present tense in Hebrews 8:6, which again destroys your whole system of interpretation.

Look on YouTube and show us how many Dispensationalists have ever given a sermon on the New Covenant.

Why not? Because it destroys their system...

.

Rev.12:11 is reference to those who will be left behind, when Jesus returns for His Church, in 1 Thess.4:16-17. When He will take us all to heaven with Him, as He makes crystal clear in Jn.14:2-3, 28 - that Paul alludes to in 1 Thess,4:15: "..By the word of the Lord...; which is a direct reference to Jn.14:2-3 and 28.

The Scriptures I have posted numerous times on this site proving the teachings of the coming pre-trib
rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, you are still calling them all liars! When are you going to man-up and admit you are dead wrong?

Here is the four post link with the Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as a reminder:

Meanwhile please tell me how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage to the Lamb and then returns with Him in His armies from heaven at Hus second coming, recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk....


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Posted in error.

 

[BABerean2]

Meanwhile please tell me how the Church gets into heaven

They died.

There are thousands upon thousands of Christians there now, including John who recorded the Book of Revelation.

You have asked this question on several occasions and I have answered it on several occasions, with the same truth.



As for those "Left Behind" what do we find in Matthew chapter 24 that proves Tim LaHaye got the title wrong for his pre-trib series of books and movies?

Mat 24:37　 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.　

Mat 24:38　 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,　

Mat 24:39　 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.　

Mat 24:40　 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.　

It is the wicked who are "taken" above.

As in the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13, it is the wicked tares who are "taken" first and burned in the fire while the wheat is "left behind" to be gathered into the barn.

Millions have come to believe the pretrib doctrine through a series of books and movies, that could not even get the title right.


.

 

[Quasar92]

They died.

There are thousands upon thousands of Christians there now, including John who recorded the Book of Revelation.

You have asked this question on several occasions and I have answered it on several occasions, with the same truth.



As for those "Left Behind" what do we find in Matthew chapter 24 that proves Tim LaHaye got the title wrong for his pre-trib series of books and movies?

Mat 24:37　 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.　

Mat 24:38　 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,　

Mat 24:39　 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.　

Mat 24:40　 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.　

It is the wicked who are "taken" above.

As in the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13, it is the wicked tares who are "taken" first and burned in the fire while the wheat is "left behind" to be gathered into the barn.

Millions have come to believe the pretrib doctrine through a series of books and movies, that could not even get the title right.


.

The entire passage required in 1 Thess.4:13-18 to fully understand the intended interpretation of it. Wgich I have shown you many times over.

Believers Who Have Died

13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words."

And there will be millions of believers left on earth alive, when Jesus returns for them, as recorded above. From where He will take them all to heaven with Him as He promised in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

Millions have mcome to believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church from the teachings of it by Jesus , Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, as recorded in the following link:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Millions have mcome to believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church from the teachings of it by Jesus , Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, as recorded in the following link:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...

If the pretrib doctrine is so obvious, why did most Greek and Hebrew Bible scholar not find it for about 1800 years?

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American pastor taught a pretrib removal of the Church at the time of the Revolutionary War.

John Nelson Darby brought the teaching to America, about the time of the Civil War.
After that it was incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, which was published with the help of leading Zionist Samuel Untermeyer.
Since that time it has spread like a virus through much of the modern evangelical Church.



The doctrine only survives by ignoring the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant revealed by Christ at the Last Supper (Matthew 26:28), the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Millions have mcome to believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church from the teachings of it by Jesus , Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, as recorded in the following link:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...

.

 

[Biblewriter]

If amillennialism is so obvious, why did most Greek and Hebrew scholars fail to find it during the church's first three hundred years? Although we know that there were amillennialists earlier, the only surviving document teaching amillennialism from before the fourth century, was written by a man justly condemned as an heretic for his many denials of basic and essential Christian doctrine.

 

[BABerean2]

If amillennialism is so obvious, why did most Greek and Hebrew scholars fail to find it during the church's first three hundred years?

That is a good question coming from a promoter of the pretrib doctrine, which did not come into common acceptance until the 19th century.


In this particular case there may be at least two factors involved.

1. Complete Bibles as we have them today were extremely rare during the first three centuries of the Church.
Therefore, the conflicts produced by some doctrines would not have been as obvious.
Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 1, Revelation 11:18, Revelation 20

It is also my understanding that the Book of Revelation was a late-comer to the cannon.
This could have been a contributing factor.


2. Most people have the tendency to force the Book of Revelation into a chronological order, by ignoring certain passages, like "the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.

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[jgr]

If amillennialism is so obvious, why did most Greek and Hebrew scholars fail to find it during the church's first three hundred years? Although we know that there were amillennialists earlier, the only surviving document teaching amillennialism from before the fourth century, was written by a man justly condemned as an heretic for his many denials of basic and essential Christian doctrine.

A conjecture:

There were more premils who were writers than amils who were writers.

Premil Justin Martyr did say there were "many who...think otherwise". They just weren't writers.