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Featured Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Matisyahu8898, Oct 19, 2017.

  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    So- you accept the concept of death in the eternal kingdom?
     
  2. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-5 are the same place, "The Eternal" New Heaven and Earth, an infant dying a 100 years old is a description of "Eternal" not literal.

    Ask yourself honestly, is the New Heaven, Earth, And Jerusalem seen in both accounts, "Yes"

    Then you interpret the scripture in the "Eternal Sense" :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Sorry, but I accept the explicit statements of the Holy Spirit over the interpretations you choose to make of them.
     
  4. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    You write a Novel big enough to start a publishing company, and provide no scripture to support your claims?

    Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% "Spiritual Realm"

    Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Dead, The Souls, God, Christ,?

    Can you honestly believe this represents humans on earth, living and dying as Jesus sits on a earthly throne some where?
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The borders specified in Ezekiel 47 are restatements of equivalent specifications in Genesis 15, Exodus 23, Numbers 34, Deuteronomy 11, and Joshua 1; all of which pre-date Joshua 21.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  6. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    .
     
  7. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Jesus Christcurrently sits upon the throne, at the right hand of the Father, his throne is accessible to all that call upon his name from a true repentant heart.

    PS there will be no 1000 year kingdo. on this earth.
     
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Everything he said is clearly stated in scripture.
     
  9. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Except, of course, two details. First, although they are highly similar, they are different from these previous borders. and second, they are explicitly stated to apply to a time in the future of the prophecy. This new border is explicitly stated to apply to a restoration of Israel as a nation.
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    This same claim above is found on page 338 of the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty", by the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza.

    "The bounds of the land of promise marked off in this prophecy, are doubtless, somewhat more ample than the children of Israel ever occupied..."

    This book was translated into English by Edward Irving and presented at the Albury Prophetic Conferences in the UK during the 1820's.
    Irving included his commentary along with the book.
    On page 63 of his commentary Irving used the word "dispensation" thirteen times.

    This work is the founding document of modern Dispensational Theology.
    According to well known Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, John Darby became interested in prophecy after attending conferences at Albury.


    Genesis of Dispensational Theology
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ



    Sadly, millions of modern Christians are now supporting the "Greater Israel Project".

    America's wars in the Middle East are designed to weaken Israel's neighbors in an effort to aid this goal.
    One of my former students, was an American soldier who was killed in Iraq.
    I have visited his grave.


    Thousands have been sacrificed toward the goal of "Greater Israel".

    It is one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church.



    .
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    And what is supposed to be the point of the fact that Lacunza was one of the people that noticed what the scriptures explicitly say? He was far from the first (relative) modern to notice that the scriptures explicitly say this nation will be restored, and most certainly not the last.

    this is nothing but an attempt to advance the proven falsehood, that Dispensationalism came from Lacunza.
     
  12. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Ezekiel 47 Is "The Eternal Kingdom", and has absolutely nothing to do with Israel as a Earthly Nation, as you falsely claim.

    Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5, Same Place, The Eternal Kingdom Where The River And Tree Of Life Are Present.

    River Of Life Flows From The Throne/ Sanctuary. The Tree Of Life Giving Fruit Every Month, Leaves Of The Tree For Healing/ Medicine.

    How Long Will You Falsely Teach That "The Eternal Kingdom" , Is A Earthly Place Where Mortal Humans Are Present, Living And Dying.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    The historical teachings of a pre-trib rapture "Dispensational Zionism" are right in line with Bereans presentation.

    With John Hagee and his second wife "Diana Castro" at the front of todays line concerning this false teaching.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1. How exactly are they different?
    2. What is the significance of the difference?
    3. What is the difference in the area of the land which they enclose?
    4. What covenant if any are they associated with?
    5. How does any natural river increase in depth with the same volume of water emanating from its source (v. 3-5), as does this one, as one proceeds downstream?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  15. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The details of the future border are not found in any previous description. But that is not important. The important thing is that the passage I quoted specifically and explicitly says it is future.

    This is in the natural world. But it is obviously not unchanged. We are explicitly told that there shall be no more curse. Likewise the river is obviously not a natural river. But that does not even imply that this is the eternal state. For both of the scriptures I quoted explicitly say that there will be death, even though people will live for a very long time.
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I am far from home, writing on my iPhone, and unable to correct my more than usual number of typos. Sorry, I meant to say William Lowth, not William Zlowery.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on your past posts, if you can find anyone else who ever used the word "dispensation", which is a Bible word, then according to you it had nothing to do with Irving or Lacunza.

    Forget the fact that Irving used the word thirteen times on one page of his commentary that accompanied the English translation of Lacunza's book,
    or that Irving presented doctrine from the book at the Albury Conference,
    or that Dr. Charles Ryrie said Darby became interested in prophecy at the Albury Conference.




    .
     
  18. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 20:1-7
    Verses 1 - 3 says an angel came down out of heaven and seized onto satan and locked satan up for 1000 years and afterwards will be set free for a short time. At this time satan is on earth which is why the angel acme down from heaven

    Verses 4-6 says the martyred dead were brought back to life from the dead - just as many others scriptures throughout the bible teaches this will happen , and those who were brought back to life became priests of God and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. .
    Will you please explain exactly how this is spiritual ? Please Explain who are people these priests of God were reigning over ?

    If as you say that when Christ returns it is immediately the Final judgment for all and we enter into the Eternal realm where the only people who are allowed into this time will have a new glorified body that will never be separated from Jesus since Jesus says no one can ever pluck them out of his hand , .Will you please explain exactly how this is spiritual ? Please explain why satan is not yet judged and how he would be allowed into the eternal kingdom as you call it ?

    Verse 7 says that after 1000 years of prison satan is released to go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth , and he did deceive the number of people like the number of grains of sand on the seashore which is obviously a very large number of people who were deceived and approaching in a march to attack Gods people; that were destroyed by Fire form God.
    Will you please explain who are the people that satan could deceive if the final judgment has already happened before satan is released from prison ?,

    If all had been judged in the Final judgment and we are in the eternal realm , who is it that God has destroyed with fire that came down from heaven?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  19. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    I will explain the future scenario real slow.

    1. There will be a future man of sin/antichrist who will be in Jerusalem, a slick talker like a politician, he will be given 42 months, the tribulation starts at his revealing to be God returned..

    2. The two witnesses seen in revelation 11 will stand before the Antichrist day for day, they will bring the plagues upon the earth as seen in revelation, like Moses and Aaron against Pharaoh. At the end of the tribulation they will be killed and lay in the streets of Jerusalem, as the final hours of earths history takes place, sun,moon blood, stars fall, massive earthquake island/mountains move as Jesus returns if first judgment that dissolves the earth.

    The second advent, resurrection/catching up, final judgment all takes place in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" Eternity Begins in the New Heaven, Earth, And Jerusalem

    Hope that helps, feel free to ask questions, scripture reference to prove the info claimed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So this is a different land promise than the one to Abraham in Genesis 15:18. According to Joshua 21:43, that original promise to Abraham was fulfilled. Would you agree?
     
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