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Featured Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Matisyahu8898, Oct 19, 2017.

  1. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with some of what you say here , unfortunately you did not address the very specific questions I asked of you regarding what you said in your previous post so I ask you again please answer the questions I have already asked of you

    Revelation 20:1-7
    Verses 1 - 3 says an angel came down out of heaven and seized onto satan and locked satan up for 1000 years and afterwards will be set free for a short time. At this time satan is on earth which is why the angel acme down from heaven

    Verses 4-6 says the martyred dead were brought back to life from the dead - just as many others scriptures throughout the bible teaches this will happen , and those who were brought back to life became priests of God and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. .
    Will you please explain exactly how this is spiritual ? Please Explain who are people these priests of God were reigning over ?

    If as you say that when Christ returns it is immediately the Final judgment for all and we enter into the Eternal realm where the only people who are allowed into this time will have a new glorified body that will never be separated from Jesus since Jesus says no one can ever pluck them out of his hand , .Will you please explain exactly how this is spiritual ?
    Please explain why satan is not yet judged and how he would be allowed into the eternal kingdom as you call it ?

    Verse 7 says that after 1000 years of prison satan is released to go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth , and he did deceive the number of people like the number of grains of sand on the seashore which is obviously a very large number of people who were deceived and approaching in a march to attack Gods people; that were destroyed by Fire form God.
    Will you please explain who are the people that satan could deceive if the final judgment has already happened before satan is released from prison ?,

    If all had been judged in the Final judgment and we are in the eternal realm , who is it that God has destroyed with fire that came down from heaven?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  2. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Revelation 20:1-15
    The 1000 years take place from the time of Jesus Christ earthly ministry to his second advent, Thousand is not literal, one day is a thousand in the spiritual realm as seen in rev 20:1-6.

    Rev 20:1-3 satan is bound from "One Specific Purpose"that is deceiving the nations to the final battle.scripture doesn't teach all evil is bound.

    Rev 20:4-6 The saits lived again spiritually, nothing says they came to life physically, all christians reign with Christ, we are priests and kings.

    Yes immediately after the tribulation, Jesus returns in firey judgment, as the resurrection/ catching up takes place, "Everything Evil Is Judged" Devil, Beast, False Prophet, Wicked Men, Righteous Men, In The Twinkling of an eye, as lightning strikes, eternity begins. Satan Will be in the lake of fire " The Book Of Revelation Is Not In Chronological Order" as this is your confusion possibly.

    Rev 20:7-9 Satan is bound currently from "One Specific Purpose" deceiving the nations to battle. He will be spiritually loosed to perform this during the end of the tribulation, yes fire comes down from heaven 2 peter 3:10-13 as the final judgment takes place in the twinkling of an eye.

    A tribulation saint martyred or dying one earthly week before the second advent will enter the non-literal 1000 year reign, and will be resurrected one week later in earthly time at the second advent, final judgment.

    It appears your confusion is you believe in a literal future 1000 years "Not So" Rev 20:1-6 100% spiritual realm, taking place now- until the second advent.

    Once again, A Thousand Years Is One Day 2 Peter 3:8 No Literal Time In Revelation 20:1-6 angel, heaven, devil, the souls, the dead, God, Christ 100% in the Lords spiritual.

    Once again, the book of revelation is not in chronological order, but is parallel teachings of the same things.

    Hope this helps, ask more questions, feel free.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    It was fulfilled as to that time. But the promise to Abraham was perpetual, and the book of Hebrews clearly teaches that it was not conditional.
     
  4. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    The promises are conditional, the blessings can only be received through salvation in Jesus Christ, the fulfillment of the Law, Promises, and Covenants.

    The future remnant elect Jew as seen in Romans 11 will be saved by Jesus Christ, just as any christian is called and chosen.
    National Israel as a whole will be blind to salvation, the veil is upon their eyes.
    The land covenants are fulfilled in the future "Eternal Kingdom" as seen in Ezekiel 47, that you deny is the eternal kingdom.

    Israel the Church, The true Israelitic race has inherited the promises and covenants through Jesus Christ.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    John saw "souls" reigning with Christ.
    Where are the "souls" of dead Christians today?
    Are the souls of these people now alive, based on John 5:24?



    Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 


    1Pe 2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 


    1Pe 2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 


    1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 

    .
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You are correct, as found in the verses below.
    We will use Paul as our witness.


    Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ. 

    Gal 3:26  For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 
    Gal 3:27  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 
    Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 
    Gal 3:29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Paul says above that we are heirs to the promise made to Abraham. 



    The promise to Abraham is found in the first verse of the New Testament.
    It is the most important genealogy in the whole Bible.

    Mat 1:1
      The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: 

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  7. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    You can lead a horse to water, but ya can't make him drink! :)

    It can't be put any better, laid out plain and simple.

    Hard to believe a person would deny that the eternal River and Tree of life is seen in Ezekiel 47:12 the very same place as Revelation 22:1-5.

    You have posted the basic truth "Several Times" very simple and easy to understand.

    Truth7t7
     
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    And I have repeatedly posted scriptures that. Do Not say things that I interpret to mean, but rather explicitly say, that both death and birth will still exist at that time. But the scriptures also explicitly state that neither of these conditions will exist I. The resurrection. So, regardless of your joint interpretations, I have shown you scriptures that absolutely prove that this simply cannot be the eternal state.

    A single word from God is stronger than all the reasonings of man.
     
  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  10. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Read 1 Peter 2nd chapter , you misapply it's meaning as it is speaking that if you want to be part of Gods Holy people you need to rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation

    9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    it does NOT say that their "whole being" is simply some sort of disembodied spirit floating around in the air /or as in some hollywood depiction just floating around on cloud

    Read on into the very next chapter of
    1 Peter 3:20
    Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Genesis 12:5
    And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

    Acts 7:14
    Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.

    All these references to Souls are real Physical people living in the biblical times on earth

    Philippians 3-:20- 21
    20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
    21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Acts 10:41
    Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead

    Matthew 28:
    7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
    9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

    Luke 24:39
    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


    John 20:27
    27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

    Matthew 27:51-52
    51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

    These scriptures clearly describe a touchable , physical body that can walk on earth , eat food growing from the trees or other vegetation but does not require food to survive , no it does not have blood going through it and the skin does not bleed as it is made of a different substance , but yet it is undeniably physical

    Do you have any scriptures that are as clearly stating our bodies will not be physical that are as clearly describing that they will be physical ?

    I have a long day ahead , but there is more to come
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    No.

    Because we will have both a soul and an immortal body like His, at His Second Coming.

    However, you cannot discount those "souls" who now reside in heaven with Christ.

    Those addressed originally by Peter in 1 Peter chapter 2, also have an immortal soul, and are in heaven now.
    The same passage also applies to us today.


    .
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's progress.

    Where in Hebrews do you see that?
     
  13. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you." 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 6:13-20
     
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Aren't these the heirs of promise?

    Galatians 3:29
    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
     
  15. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The point was that the promises to Abraham were unconditional. And these included perpetual possession of a specific plot of real estate. And just before they were cast out of that piece of real estate, as they were told they would be cast out due to their sins, they were promised they would be brought back and never cast out again.
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    So the issue now is: Who is the real Israel today?
    Is Israel just those people in the State of Israel? This premise is not possible because the Jewish people are not and have never been 'as many as the sands of the sea'. Also they have never fulfilled the promises of God as given to all the tribes by Moses and Jacob.
    BUT the Christian peoples are a vast multitude and they have fulfilled things like: Of Asher......he will bath his feet in oil. Deuteronomy 33:24 The tribe of Asher is thought to have settled Scotland, so their North sea oil fulfils that prophecy.

    Making out that the Jews are the sole inheritors, who comprise only two of the twelve tribes, is quite illogical and contradicts the many prophesies of how they will soon be judged and punished for their very evident sins and only a remnant [of Christian Jews] will survive.
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hebrews 1
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Christ is the heir of all things.

    He is therefore the heir of that piece of real estate.
     
  18. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  19. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  20. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Yes , all who have obtained salvation in Christ will have a soul and immortal body like Jesus the Christ has regardless of what year they accepted Christ gift of salvation
     
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