David Bentley Hart on Hell

[JulieB67]

But only one reference to "not quenched," and when applied to earthly fire, I take it to mean it will not be extinguished by human means, but will burn itself out, but when applied spiritually to God's judgment on sin, it is unending.

And yet, there are many more references about the wages and consequences of sin being death, not burning in hell forever. Just because you choose to believe death is burning in hell forever doesn't make it a fact.

Christ described the gulf, so we know there are two sides at this point. One at this point after their physical death goes to one side or the other. At the end, we know after the GWT that both death and hell (this side of the gulf) are thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death and coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28


Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Both destroy and perish as utilized in these verses is Greek word 622 apollumi -to destroy fully, destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Which perspective is simply a matter of belief or unbelief of Jesus' clear, plain and simple words in Mark 9:48

You claim, Christ's teaching in this verse is plain and simple, but do not agree with his teaching in Matthew 10:28

And you pull "burning in hell forever" out of the word apollumi. Which is clearly not the definition at all.

And you keep posting Christ's reference about about being thrown into hell, (Gehenna) and the fire is not quenched and I've shown you a reference where God talks also about a fire that will not be quenched and later it went out.

And it makes no sense for death and hell to be thrown into the lake of fire, if this wasn't meant to be final, death. Christ calls this the "second death". Common sense alone tells us this is the soul. Physical death being the first. And again again, this coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28.

 

[Saint Steven]

And yet, there are many more references about the wages and consequences of sin being death, not burning in hell forever. Just because you choose to believe death is burning in hell forever doesn't make it a fact.

Christ described the gulf, so we know there are two sides at this point. One at this point after their physical death goes to one side or the other. At the end, we know after the GWT that both death and hell (this side of the gulf) are thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death and coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28


Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Both destroy and perish as utilized in these verses is Greek word 622 apollumi -to destroy fully, destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.



You claim, Christ's teaching in this verse is plain and simple, but do not agree with his teaching in Matthew 10:28

And you pull "burning in hell forever" out of the word apollumi. Which is clearly not the definition at all.

And you keep posting Christ's reference about about being thrown into hell, (Gehenna) and the fire is not quenched and I've shown you a reference where God talks also about a fire that will not be quenched and later it went out.

And it makes no sense for death and hell to be thrown into the lake of fire, if this wasn't meant to be final, death. Christ calls this the "second death". Common sense alone tells us this is the soul. Physical death being the first. And again again, this coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28.

Wow. Great post, thanks.

There is also the literary aspect of exaggerated language to consider. We do it as well, but it has always been common in literature, which the Bible is.

Note the hellish description of Edom in the scripture below. Tar pits and unquenchable fire and "smoke" that will "rise forever." Is there such a place in the middle east today? (in the Transjordan area)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

 

[JulieB67]

There is also the literary aspect of exaggerated language to consider. We do it as well, but it has always been common in literature, which the Bible is.

Exactly!

And to me it's so important to take the Bible as a whole, both OT and NT to get the complete picture on subjects such as this.

 

[Saint Steven]

Exactly!

And to me it's so important to take the Bible as a whole, both OT and NT to get the complete picture on subjects such as this.

Yes. Especially when the whole book is seen through the lens of the New Testament. The way Paul looks at Christ and the way Christ looks at the OT. "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago... But I tell you..." (Matt.5) From hearsay to truth. "Follow me as I follow Christ..." (1Cor.11:1)

 

[ozso]

Christ described the gulf, so we know there are two sides at this point. One at this point after their physical death goes to one side or the other.

 

[Der Alte]

And yet, there are many more references about the wages and consequences of sin being death, not burning in hell forever. Just because you choose to believe death is burning in hell forever doesn't make it a fact.
Christ described the gulf, so we know there are two sides at this point. One at this point after their physical death goes to one side or the other. At the end, we know after the GWT that both death and hell (this side of the gulf) are thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death and coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Both destroy and perish as utilized in these verses is Greek word 622 apollumi -to destroy fully, destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
You claim, Christ's teaching in this verse is plain and simple, but do not agree with his teaching in Matthew 10:28
And you pull "burning in hell forever" out of the word apollumi. Which is clearly not the definition at all.
And you keep posting Christ's reference about about being thrown into hell, (Gehenna) and the fire is not quenched and I've shown you a reference where God talks also about a fire that will not be quenched and later it went out.
And it makes no sense for death and hell to be thrown into the lake of fire, if this wasn't meant to be final, death. Christ calls this the "second death". Common sense alone tells us this is the soul. Physical death being the first. And again again, this coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28.

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says 8 groups of unrighteous “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

 

[Clare73]

And yet, there are many more references about the wages and consequences of sin being death, not burning in hell forever.

It's not a contest, it's not a competition resolved by which has the most verses.

Also, they are referring to two different things.

"The wages of sin is death" refers to natural death of our body.
Had Adam not sinned, there would have been no death of our bodies.

Gehenna is the second death, spiritual death, enveloping the spirits of unbelievers at their natural death of their bodies.

 

[Clare73]

I'm surprised you're taking this stance regarding Luke 16:19-31, considering how steadfast you've been in taking Mark 9:48/Isaiah 66:24 as being literal.

You don't believe in parables?

It's a parable, a metaphor. See Luke 8:5-15.

 

[Clare73]

…..The word “parable” is from the Greek word “παραβολή/parabole” which means to place or throw beside, to clarify/explain something unknown by comparing it to something known. All of the unquestioned “parables” have this comparison.
Jesus identified 5 parables as such. Others identified 26 parables as such.
…..1. The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the grammatical structure of a parable it presents no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
2. It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
…..All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,””a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus,” otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

Thanks. . .I'm still working on "fictitious events."

For me, the distinction is between reality and non-reality, rather than between events
actually occurring and not actually occurring.
Is there a Biblical basis for actually occurring events as the measure?

A parable is not based on a fiction, such as superman or absence of gravity.
A parable is based on the way reality works.

The parable of the rich man being in Hades and Lazarus being in Paradise is the way spiritual reality works.

And I see in it something more than violation of the law.
Jesus was responding to Pharisees who were sneering at him (Luke 16:14).
The issue was not the sin in the parable, the issue was their denial and rejection of him.
The sin in the parable is just a vehicle to set up the sin at issue--unbelief, the wheel on which the parable turns.

I see his response as of-a-piece and in the temper of (in tune with) events reported in the gospel of John, where denial of Jesus by the religious leaders was vigorously condemned by him, their hatred of him being the greatest threat to his dying before his time, and his response to them being a warning of the consequences (Hades) of their denial and unbelief, such events being not uncommon in the gospel of John.

 

[JulieB67]

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.

You do realize this statement makes no sense? Why do you think it's called the second death? Of course that means anyone who is thrown in dies eventually. This is after the GWT. Everyone found not written in the book of life will be thrown in.

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

This is just restating this verse, we know they have their part in the lake of fire, which is the second death. There is only one GWT but you act as if people afterwards are still being judged after 20:15.

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Everyone not written in the book of life after judgement is thrown into the lake of fire.

Again, it makes no sense to call something the second death when if it implies the exact
opposite.

It's not a contest, it's not a competition resolved by which has the most verses.

Of course it's not a contest. My point is you have to take the entire bible as a whole and not a few verses here and there. So much can be taken out of context that way.

Gehenna is the second death, spiritual death

The soul that sins will die period. There is no afterlife for them. That's eternal, there's no coming back from that. The smoke rises forever but they don't. That's what "second" death means. If they had an afterlife, the word "death" would most likely not be used. And that's exactly what Christ was teaching in Matthew 10:28. Both body "and" soul will perish.

You're giving these souls everlasting "life", just in another place.

 

[Der Alte]

You do realize this statement makes no sense? Why do you think it's called the second death? Of course that means anyone who is thrown in dies eventually. This is after the GWT. Everyone found not written in the book of life will be thrown in. * * *

There is a a lot of figurative language in Revelation.
E.g. "Death and hell are thrown in to the lake of fire which is the second death."
This does not make any sense death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence it cannot be literally thrown anywhere. It is not a living thing it can't die even once so it can't die a second death.
"Hell" if it refers to the place of punishment could possible be thrown but it is not a living thing it can't die even once so it can't die a second death.
If "hell" refers to the grave, a grave is an empty hole. Empty can't be thrown anywhere, it is not a living thing it can't die even once so it can't die a second time.

 

[Clare73]

Haven't you got enough firefronts lit there Clare? Talk about the spirit of debate.

FIRST, Hades is emptied when it 'gives up the dead that are in it' after Jesus releases them.

Talk about the spirit of habitual Scripture alteration: the text states nothing about Jesus releasing them from Hades.

Proving it is NOT locked from the inside, thank you Mr Lewis (although gum in the lock may trouble the easy turning of the key).
NEXT, the voided room of Hades gets chucked into the LoF.

Narrative development sister, please try to keep up with the action of the vision.

Physician, heal thyself.

Narrative development brother, all those from the "voided room of Hades" (their names not being found written in the Book of Life) were likewise "chucked" into the lake of fire. . .please try to keep up with the action of the vison.

 

[ozso]

You don't believe in parables?

It's a parable, a metaphor.

Luke 16:19-31 is a parable.

Mark 9:48/Isaiah 66:24 is a metaphor.

 

[Clare73]

Luke 16:19-31 is a parable.

Mark 9:48/Isaiah 66:24 is a metaphor.

That remains to be seen.

 

[ozso]

That remains to be seen.

That's what I was talking about.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Talk about the spirit of repeated Scripture alteration: the text states nothing about Jesus releasing them from Hades.

Jesus holds the keys Clare, the keys to Hades (Rev 1:18). And he comes to free the prisoners (Lk 4:18) and to raise the dead (too many examples to reference). So can we concur on this point?

Physician, heal thyself.

Glad we agree I need the healing, but I do lack the qualifications. Thank you Jesus.

Narrative development brother, all those from the "voided room of Hades" (their names not being found written in the Book of Life) were likewise "chucked" into the lake of fire. . .please try to keep up with the action of the vison.

Lol, they are indeed Clare, but only AFTER Jesus sprung them from Hades and consigned Hades to the eternal flame. We can get on to the fate of those who voided their rheum on the cross in the next exciting chapter of debate.

 

[Saint Steven]

Right. Everyone is on the far side of the gulf before we cross over.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus holds the keys Clare, the keys to Hades (Rev 1:18). And he comes to free the prisoners (Lk 4:18) and to raise the dead (too many examples to reference). So can we concur on this point?

And you know this is not the gospel freeing the living prisoners of sin and condemnation on earth, how?

Glad we agree I need the healing, but I do lack the qualifications. Thank you Jesus.

You have the power not to fault others for what you do yourself.

Lol, they are indeed Clare, but only AFTER Jesus sprung them from Hades and consigned Hades to the eternal flame. We can get on to the fate of those who voided their rheum on the cross in the next exciting chapter of debate.

My Bible states nothing about Jesus' springing anybody.

You've added to your Bible. . .AGAIN!

 

[Clare73]

That's what I was talking about.

I can live with that. . .

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus holds the keys Clare, the keys to Hades (Rev 1:18). And he comes to free the prisoners (Lk 4:18) and to raise the dead (too many examples to reference). So can we concur on this point?
Glad we agree I need the healing, but I do lack the qualifications. Thank you Jesus.
Lol, they are indeed Clare, but only AFTER Jesus sprung them from Hades and consigned Hades to the eternal flame. We can get on to the fate of those who voided their rheum on the cross in the next exciting chapter of debate.

Quoting selective verses out-of-context while deliberately ignoring verses which do not support ones denominational assumptions/presuppositions. Tsk, tsk. Lot of that going around.
Let us look at Lk 4:18.

Luke 4:18-19
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."​

This is Jesus' earthly ministry. It says nothing about raising the dead. The word translated "prisoners" literally means "prisoners of war." In hades there are no poor people, no blind people, no oppressed people only dead people.