David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Clare73]

If I understand the question correctly Clare, you're now suggesting that Jesus only frees certain prisoners under certain conditions.

You know. . .like the gospel says. . .whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already (John 3:18), the wrath of God remains on him (John 3:36)--no release from condemnation for that prisoner of God's wrath.

As in "I have come to free the prisoners who want to be freed by me while imprisoned in privately operated facilities (but not on remand unless bail was denied and over 12 months have elapsed) situate above earth, before they fall asleep, after they repent if they've softened their hearts but only if they're using the KJV"...?

Is that kind of where you're headed?

Well, I hadn't thought of that, but I'll think it over.

I shall redouble efforts to remove the log from mine eye.

'Springing' means releasing, as in Jesus comes to spring the prisoners. I learned it from a street monk.
Lol, it's called commentary. Expositional exegesis if you like. Do you stand up in church and yell that accusation any time a preacher expounds on a verse, or just on special occasions?

We don't have the problem of adding ideas to the Scriptures in my church.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You know. . .like the gospel says. . .whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already (John 3:18), the wrath of God remains on them (John 3:36).

And that's the point of the gospel, glad tidings of great joy for all mankind.

The condemned are to be freed.

According to some, there's a host of preconditions.

How about those scribes and pharisees who load people up with burdens they themselves won't carry, and shut up the kingdom to those less fortunate than they.

Well, I hadn't thought of that, but I'll think it over.

It that the clicking sound I'm hearing?

We don't have the problem of adding ideas to the Scriptures in my church.

 

[Clare73]

You know. . .like the gospel says. . .whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already (John 3:18), the wrath of God remains on him (John 3:36).

And that's the point of the gospel, glad tidings of great joy for all mankind.

"Interesting" disconnect.
.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Disconnect? It's the angel's gospel. Good news for ALL. Goes without saying that 'all' includes those who were already condemned - Jesus comes to free them, that's his express mission.

What's so hard to understand Clare? Does it bother you that someone you don't like might be whitelisted?

 

[Clare73]

Disconnect? It's the angel's gospel. Good news for ALL. Goes without saying that 'all' includes those who were already condemned - Jesus comes to free them, that's his express mission.

Can't believe you know so little of the gospel.

In a nutshell. . .all mankind is condemned because of Adam's sin (Romans 5:18).
Jesus said he frees only those who believe in him. For those who do not believe in him, they stand condemned (John 3:18), the wrath of God remains on them (John 3:36).

What's so hard to understand Clare?

That's what I was thinking regarding you.

Does it bother you that someone you don't like might be whitelisted?

Thy speech doth betray thee.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Thy speech doth betray thee.

Which one? I haven't been to United Nations General Assembly recently.

 

[Clare73]

Which one? I haven't been to United Nations General Assembly recently.

Pick any one.

Do you think the double shenanigans aren't recognizable?

 

[Ceallaigh]

“Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

 

[Clare73]

“Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

So how does the destruction of the heavens and earth by fire fit into apocatastasis?

 

[Ceallaigh]

So how does the destruction of the heavens and earth by fire fit into apocatastasis?

Idk. I haven't read it yet. I sent the author Der Alte's EOC quotes regarding eternal torment and he sent me that link along with a brief message saying their hymnody is irrefutably universalist.

 

[Der Alte]

And that's the point of the gospel, glad tidings of great joy for all mankind.
The condemned are to be freed.
According to some, there's a host of preconditions.
How about those scribes and pharisees who load people up with burdens they themselves won't carry, and shut up the kingdom to those less fortunate than they....

There are already preconditions in scripture but the "Hell no" crowd ignores them.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:​

NOT “in Christ””in Him” NOT gathered together in one.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” there IS condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:​

NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

NOT “in Christ” old things NOT passed away NOT made new.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,​

NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

 

[DragonFox91]

Hell is real, but I'm not convinced it's eternal for the doomed souls. My understanding it's thrown into the Lake of Fire to burn forever, as revealed in Revelation.

 

[Clare73]

Hell is real, but I'm not convinced it's eternal for the doomed souls. My understanding it's thrown into the Lake of Fire to burn forever, as revealed in Revelation.

However, all the inhabitants of hell are also thrown into the lake of fire to burn forever.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Der Alte]

Hell is real, but I'm not convinced it's eternal for the doomed souls. My understanding it's thrown into the Lake of Fire to burn forever, as revealed in Revelation.

If hell is itself fire how can being thrown into the lake of fire destroy it?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

“Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

Wish I had a local church like that.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There are already preconditions in scripture but the "Hell no" crowd ignores them.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:​

NOT “in Christ””in Him” NOT gathered together in one.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” there IS condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:​

NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

NOT “in Christ” old things NOT passed away NOT made new.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,​

NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

Lot's of double negatives there der Alte. Very impressive pseudo-mega-apophatic theology.

But none of that precludes salvation of all.

 

[Ceallaigh]

There are already preconditions in scripture but the "Hell no" crowd ignores them.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:​

NOT “in Christ””in Him” NOT gathered together in one.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

NOT “in Christ” NO redemption.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

“Walk after the flesh” NOT “in Christ” there IS condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT a member of the body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:​

NOT “in Christ” NO sanctification, NO redemption.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

NOT “in Christ” old things NOT passed away NOT made new.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT children of God.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

NOT “in Christ” NOT ”made nigh” still far off.

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,​

NOT “in Christ” NO promise of life.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

NOT “in Christ” NO salvation.

Yesterday many who weren't in Christ, now are. Not being in Christ is not a permanent unchangeable state.

 

[Saint Steven]

Wish I had a local church like that.

I was really struck by the scripture below in the sermon on Sunday. But afterward the pastor made an inference to hell. ("we know what happens") But this clearly says, "God... made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions... And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus..." It even goes on to mention the "coming ages". All of which went right past most listeners, but was not lost on me.

Grace = being made alive with Christ when we were dead in our transgressions
Where is the conditional clause in that? That we need to be sinners first? - lol

Ephesians 2:4-7 NIV
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I was really struck by the scripture below in the sermon on Sunday. But afterward the pastor made an inference to hell. ("we know what happens") But this clearly says, "God... made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions... And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus..." It even goes on to mention the "coming ages". All of which went right past most listeners, but was not lost on me.

Grace = being made alive with Christ when we were dead in our transgressions
Where is the conditional clause in that? That we need to be sinners first? - lol

Ephesians 2:4-7 NIV
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

So sad to see these folks trapped in the damnationist dogma, even the church statements of faith read to the effect 'we get grace, while everyone else goes to hell'. They should call them statements of lack of faith lol.

Damnationism casts a shadow over the totality of interpretation. Everything's tainted by its falsity.