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David Bentley Hart on Hell

Clare73

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Kind of interesting tap dance but it glosses over Matthew 25:31-46 in response to your previous post.
Actually, it was to the point.

Mt 25:31-46 is the law for those under the law, to whom Jesus was preaching plainly, not in a parable.

Luke 16:19-31 is parabolic. It is not literal, it is metaphor.

You are trying to understand it literally and are, therefore, missing the point of his NT teaching; i.e., the gravity of unbelief in him as Messiah and Savior.

Keeping in mind he said he taught in parables so his enemies could not understand them.
The religious leaders were his enemies, and his parable was a strong indictment of them.
So he was careful not to enflame them, to give them no cause against him, staying alive until his time had come.

There is some kind of off-flavor of denial/unbelief in your understanding of the NT.
What's that about? What is the issue?
 
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Der Alte

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Actually, it was to the point.
Mt 25:31-46 is the law for those under the law, to whom Jesus was preaching plainly, not in a parable.
Luke 16:19-31 is parabolic. It is not literal, it is metaphor.
You are trying to understand it literally and are, therefore, missing the point of his NT teaching; i.e., the gravity of unbelief in him as Messiah and Savior.
Keeping in mind he said he taught in parables so his enemies could not understand them.
The religious leaders were his enemies, and his parable was a strong indictment of them.
So he was careful not to enflame them, to give them no cause against him, staying alive until his time had come.
There is some kind of off-flavor of denial/unbelief in your understanding of the NT.
What's that about? What is the issue?
Interesting but unsupported conclusion. Is it your contention that there is more than one judgement one for Jews and another for Christians?
Does Jesus have two flocks one consisting of Jews and the other gentile Christians?
How many thrones does Jesus have?

Matthew 25:31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Note vs. 32 "all nations" not just Jews.
There is some kind of off-flavor of denial/unbelief in your understanding of the NT.
What's that about? What is the issue?
 
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ozso

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Is this a subtle attempt trying to prove the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable because parts of it are similar to Lk 61:1?
To be a parable it must have a known, understood actual situation to compare/contrast with an unknown, not understood spiritual situation.
Greek parabole from which we get "parable" mean "lay beside."
In Lazarus and the rich man there is no comparison/contrast between actual and spiritual.

Yes I'm pointing out the fact that the bookended stories both start out exactly the same way and have similarities.

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them Matthew 13:34

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables Mark 4:11

But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Luke 8:10
 
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Clare73

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Interesting but unsupported conclusion.
What is not supported in my following conclusion:

"Luke 16:19-31 is parabolic. It is not literal, it is metaphor.

You are trying to understand it literally and are, therefore, missing the point of his NT teaching; i.e., the gravity of unbelief in him as Messiah and Savior.

Keeping in mind he said he taught in parables so his enemies could not understand them.
The religious leaders were his enemies, and his parable was a strong indictment of them.
So he was careful not to enflame them, to give them no cause against him, staying alive until his time had come.

There is some kind of off-flavor of denial/unbelief in your understanding of the NT.
What's that about? What is the issue?"

Is it your contention that there is more than one judgement one for Jews and another for Christians?
Does Jesus have two flocks one consisting of Jews and the other gentile Christians?
One judgment, one flock.
How many thrones does Jesus have?
Probably as many as he wants, from one to ???
Matthew 25:31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Note vs. 32 "all nations" not just Jews.
 
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ozso

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Since I have searched the ECF multiple times re: Lazarus and the rich man I think I can say without fear of contradiction, in the standard collection of the ECF writings there is not one single mention of Lazarus and the rich man which contradicts what I posted.

Cool, but I was talking about your word search picks for what they said about eternal torment.
 
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ozso

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…..
The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the format of a parable there is no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
….

So in other words Luke 16:19-31 isn't a parable because it refers to fictitious events.
 
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Der Alte

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So in other words Luke 16:19-31 isn't a parable because it refers to fictitious events.
I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to reply to it. The Lazarus/rich man story lacks the grammatical structure of a parable. It may or may not be another type of literary device but it is not a parable. Posted previously in this thread, all four ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
 
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ozso

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I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to reply to it. The Lazarus/rich man story lacks the grammatical structure of a parable. It may or may not be another type of literary device but it is not a parable. Posted previously in this thread, all four ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

Oh I read it and laughed. Because according to what you posted it's either a parable or it's a fictitious event. You might want to consider using a better program.
 
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Der Alte

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Oh I read it and laughed. Because according to what you posted it's either a parable or it's a fictitious event. You might want to consider using a better program.
I did not say or imply that Lazarus and the rich man was a fictitious event. I said it does not have the grammatical structure of a parable. A parable requires a comparison between known/understood situation with not known/ not understood situation.
The story might be some other literary device but it is not a parable
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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Because the NT does, and it's important. It's the difference between profession of saving faith and actual possession of saving faith. Profession is not necessarily possession.

That isn’t “false faith” to me, it’s “not faith.” It seems like a corruption of the word faith to include both faith and lack of faith by adding qualifiers like true or false but that might just be semantics.

False faith is a profession of faith where in reality there is no new birth. True faith is not the result of good works, nor are good works the substance of faith, good works are only the evidence of faith. True faith is the result of only one thing, the new birth.

I would say that good works are the fruit of faith because they are what blossoms and is brought forth by the streams of living waters flowing from our hearts. And the fig tree that did not bear fruit at the right time was cursed.

However, "faithlessness" usually refers to failure in commitment, e.g., in marriage, and that makes works the substance of faith, where the substance of faith is belief and trust, the object of faith is the person and work of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of one's sin and reconciliation with God, the practice of faith is obedience, and the evidence of faith is good works. But keeping in mind that not all evidence in court is always true. It's the jury's job to sort out the true from the false.

The marriage is the exact way the Lord described it. We (collectively, as believers) are the Bride of Christ and His body like Eve was the body of Adam. That’s a divine mystery and it’s beautiful. So maybe it’s good to think in terms of “infidelity” as a question of whether what we do betrays the Lord.

Activity neither makes nor proves saving faith, it is only evidence. Now, without that evidence, we know the faith is not saving faith. But there is also false evidence. The difference between them is one is born again, and the evidence of works is true evidence, and the other is not born again, and the evidence of works is false evidence, it is not of the Holy Spirit, it is simply human effort to earn God's favor.

I can’t really imagine a human trying to earn God’s favour if he didn’t want God’s favour in the first place. As a convert, that’s only something I wanted after I converted. But everyone has their own experience.

Under the old covenant, failure to feed your hungry neighbor would not get you in hell. . .that's what the sacrifices were for, to pay for your sin. . .
The Levitical sacrificial system put into place animal sacrifice as atonement for unintentional sin on a regular basis. Yom Kippur, which I believe you might be referring to, was also a day to afflict oneself in repentance. Without repentance, it wouldn’t have done much of anything at all.

What got the rich man in hell was the same thing that would get all six of them in his father's house in hell, failure to believe the testimony of Moses and the Prophets regarding Jesus as the Messiah and Savior. (Six is one short of seven, not a good thing, of an unclean spirit.)

The only way you can explain this is by saying that “Lazarus” is actually symbolic language to mean “Jesus” and presumably that letting the poor in Israel starve is completely irrelevant to anything at all.
It must be, because you are vested in defending it not being about unbelief in Jesus as Messiah and Savior, of which the religious leaders were guilty.

Perhaps because one's reference points are more about good works being our salvation rather than faith, repentance and forgiveness being our salvation.

No, it’s because I think your interpretation is incorrect. I specifically said that I don’t believe works save, and compared faith and works to oxygen and carbon dioxide, so it’s manipulative and misleading to say that “perhaps” my reference points are the polar opposite of what I said. Please don’t do that again. If you disagree with something I say, say it. Playing at trying to “perhaps” your way into imputing to me things I never said is not acceptable in rational discourse and shows you can’t actually dispute what I said, only the straw man that “perhaps” might be your real point of contention.


There is nothing abstract about failure to believe in Jesus Christ. There is absolutely nothing more important in one's life.

Agreed. I don’t dispute the necessity of accepting our Messiah, only your interpretation of the story at hand.

Well first of all, parables are not literal, they are metaphor. Interpreting them literally misses the point every time, which Jesus said is why he spoke in parables in the presence of his enemies--the religious leaders, so they wouldn't understand them and make a case against his teaching.
In this case he was saying that they themselves wouldn’t believe even if someone came from the dead and I don’t know how you can’t see that even this was like one last chance, if they didn’t believe in eternal judgement or life after death (as the Sadducees did not) he would even show them that miracle by raising a man named Lazarus from the dead. And the priests (who were from my understanding mostly Sadducees) literally still did not believe and wanted to put Lazarus to death.

So, the metaphor used by the parable is addressing a much larger and more serious issue than omission of good works, where the sacrifices were the remedy for those failures. Jesus' parabolic teaching is addressing unbelief in him as Messiah and Savior, which unbelief condemns to hell, because there is no sacrifice for unbelief.
But still don’t look over what it actually says and what the Lord actually did!
 
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ozso

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I did not say or imply that Lazarus and the rich man was a fictitious event.

Yes you did:

…..
….
None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history
 
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Der Alte

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What is not supported in my following conclusion:
"Luke 16:19-31 is parabolic. It is not literal, it is metaphor.
You are trying to understand it literally and are, therefore, missing the point of his NT teaching; i.e., the gravity of unbelief in him as Messiah and Savior.
Keeping in mind he said he taught in parables so his enemies could not understand them.
The religious leaders were his enemies, and his parable was a strong indictment of them.
So he was careful not to enflame them, to give them no cause against him, staying alive until his time had come.
…..The word “parable” is from the Greek word “παραβολή/parabole” which means to place or throw beside, to clarify/explain something unknown by comparing it to something known. All of the unquestioned “parables” have this comparison.
Jesus identified 5 parables as such. Others identified 26 parables as such.
…..1. The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the grammatical structure of a parable it presents no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
2. It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
…..All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,””a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus,” otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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ozso

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…..The word “parable” is from the Greek word “παραβολή/parabole” which means to place or throw beside, to clarify/explain something unknown by comparing it to something known. All of the unquestioned “parables” have this comparison.
Jesus identified 5 parables as such. Others identified 26 parables as such.
…..1. The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the grammatical structure of a parable it presents no worldly situation which was or can be likened to heaven. There was no comparison.
2. It is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.…..None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
…..All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,””a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus,” otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the Lazarus and the rich man account considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [[formerly]] bestow even the crumbs [[which fell]] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
•Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
•Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
•Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
•The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

That's better. But it's still so oversized it's really difficult to read on a phone.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes you did:
Wrong! Read it again. How can what I said about unquestioned parables possibly be construed as me saying Lazarus and the rich man was fictitious?
Why would I say/imply that Lazarus and the rich man was fictitious when I have said more than once that all ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual
 
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ozso

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Wrong! Read it again. How can what I said about unquestioned parables possible be construed as me saying Lazarus and the rich man was fictitious?
Why would I say/imply that Lazarus and the rich man was fictitious when I have said more than once that all ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual

I already read it again. You said it can't be a parable because it contains unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events.
 
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Der Alte

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I already read it again. You said it can't be a parable because it contains unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events.
Absolutely wrong! I never said Lazarus and the rich man "can't be a parable because it contains unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events."
What I said was,

"None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance."
 
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ozso

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Absolutely wrong! I never said Lazarus and the rich man "can't be a parable because it contains unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events."
What I said was,

"None of the unquestioned parables refer to unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events. All of the unquestioned parables refer to real life type events which had happened at some time in history; e.g. a widow found lost coins, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance."

Wow you really don't see it eh? It's right there in the first sentence.
 
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Der Alte

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Wow you really don't see it eh? It's right there in the first sentence.
I know what I said and I most certainly did NOT say what you are claiming. At that point I was explaining how a parable functions. A parable cannot explain something not known, not understood by comparing it to an unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events.
 
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ozso

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I know what I said and I most certainly did NOT say what you are claiming. At that point I was explaining how a parable functions. A parable cannot explain something not known, not understood by comparing it to an unreasonable, fictitious or imaginary events.

You're starting to give me a headache lol.
 
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Shrewd Manager

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Unfulfilled prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation.

"Thrown into the lake of fire" which is the second death does not translate "Hades is emptied."

Haven't you got enough firefronts lit there Clare? Talk about the spirit of debate.

FIRST, Hades is emptied when it 'gives up the dead that are in it' after Jesus releases them.

Proving it is NOT locked from the inside, thank you Mr Lewis (although gum in the lock may trouble the easy turning of the key).

NEXT, the voided room of Hades gets chucked into the LoF.

Narrative development sister, please try to keep up with the action of the vision.
 
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ozso

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Actually, it was to the point.

Mt 25:31-46 is the law for those under the law, to whom Jesus was preaching plainly, not in a parable.

is parabolic. It is not literal, it is metaphor.

You are trying to understand it literally and are, therefore, missing the point of his NT teaching; i.e., the gravity of unbelief in him as Messiah and Savior.

Keeping in mind he said he taught in parables so his enemies could not understand them.
The religious leaders were his enemies, and his parable was a strong indictment of them.
So he was careful not to enflame them, to give them no cause against him, staying alive until his time had come.

There is some kind of off-flavor of denial/unbelief in your understanding of the NT.
What's that about? What is the issue?

I'm surprised you're taking this stance regarding Luke 16:19-31, considering how steadfast you've been in taking Mark 9:48/Isaiah 66:24 as being literal.
 
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