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David Bentley Hart on Hell

Der Alte

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In the NT, not feeding your hungry neighbor will not get you in hell.
The issue Jesus is judging in Luke 16:19-31 is much greater than not feeding your hungry neighbor.
It's rejection of him as Messiah and Savior, as the Jewish leaders did, which in the NT will get you in hell.
There is no indication in Luke that the rich man had ever heard of Jesus and Jesus said nothing about the rich man rejecting Him.
Jesus did say the rich man's brothers "[H]ave Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them . . .
if they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
There was a specific OT command that the rich man violated,

Leviticus 25:35
35 "'If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you.
Deuteronomy 15:7
7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them.


 
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a-lily-of-peace

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In the NT, not feeding your hungry neighbor will not get you in hell.

The issue Jesus is judging in Luke 16:19-31 is much greater than not feeding your hungry neighbor.

It's rejection of him as Messiah and Savior, as the Jewish leaders did, which in the NT will get you in hell.
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

(James 2:14-17, NKJV)
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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To clarify I don’t believe works save, I believe faith saves.

Faith is like oxygen and works are like carbon dioxide. If you inhale carbon dioxide you can’t breathe. But if you aren’t exhaling carbon dioxide there’s a pretty good chance you also aren’t inhaling oxygen.

So “faith without works is dead.”
 
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ozso

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I was not responding to a post about eternal punishment. I was addressing a post about whether Lazarus and the rich man was a parable or factual. I think I addressed that in my first sentence. All of the ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
But,

Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

You've presented what looks like a good case here. But I wonder if there are other things those ECF wrote, that Baptists don't agree with like perhaps the veneration of Mary and the Sacraments etc.
 
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ozso

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There is no indication in Luke that the rich man had ever heard of Jesus and Jesus said nothing about the rich man rejecting Him.
Jesus did say the rich man's brothers "[H]ave Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them . . .
if they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
There was a specific OT command that the rich man violated,

Leviticus 25:35
35 "'If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you.
Deuteronomy 15:7
7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them.

What do you think about the fact that both stories in Luke 16 start out exactly the same way?

Luke 16:1 "There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods."

Luke 16:19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day"​
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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You've presented what looks like a good case here. But I wonder if there are other things those ECF wrote, that Baptists don't agree with like perhaps the veneration of Mary and the Sacraments etc.
I have not read the ECF thoroughly but from what I have read, no. My Bible program ahs the ECF and it is very easy to do a word search.
 
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ozso

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I have not read the ECF thoroughly but from what I have read, no. My Bible program ahs the ECF and it is very easy to do a word search.

Ah that answers my unasked question of "where did he get those from?". I'm pretty sure David Bentley Hart has read the ECF thoroughly, and I know that Bradley Jersak who's a supporter of his book is an expert in Patristics. So I'll have to conclude there's a bigger picture than what's contained in those excerpts.
 
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Clare73

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There is no indication in Luke that the rich man had ever heard of Jesus and Jesus said nothing about the rich man rejecting Him.
Yeah. . .that's how parables work.
Jesus did say the rich man's brothers "[H]ave Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them . . .
if they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Parables are vehicles for hidden truth. Jesus is speaking to Pharisees and teachers of the law (Luke 15:2), his enemies.His whole presentation to them here is just parables, five of them (Luke 15:3 -16:31), as was his practice with his enemies (Matthew 13:13-18).
The seemingly innocuous story of the fifth one conceals its deeper meaning in the last half of the story, where the rich man's request to send someone from the dead to his father's house (Israel) to turn his brothers (religious leaders)--makes six sons, unholy number--to repentance is used for the wheel on which the parable turns; i.e., unbelief in Jesus, by hearts which do not believe the testimony of Moses and the Prophets because they are so hardened that even the testimony of someone "rising" from the dead will not soften them.
There was a specific OT command that the rich man violated,
Leviticus 25:35
35 "'If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you.
Deuteronomy 15:77 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them.
There is no indication in Luke that the rich man had ever heard of Jesus and Jesus said nothing about the rich man rejecting HimJesus did say the rich man's brothers "[H]ave Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them . . .if they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'There was a specific OT command that the rich man violated,Leviticus 25:35
35 "'If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you.
Deuteronomy 15:7
7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them.
Violation of which will not get you in hell.

However, rejection of Jesus as Messiah and Savior, which the religious leaders did, will get you in hell.
 
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Clare73

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What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
Thus also
faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

(James 2:14-17, NKJV)
If his faith is dead, he was never reborn. And that's what gets him in hell, it is not failing to give his brother or sister what is needed.
 
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Clare73

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To clarify I don’t believe works save, I believe faith saves.

Faith is like oxygen and works are like carbon dioxide. If you inhale carbon dioxide you can’t breathe. But if you aren’t exhaling carbon dioxide there’s a pretty good chance you also aren’t inhaling oxygen.

So “faith without works is dead.”
And dead faith does not save.
It means you never had true faith in the first place, which is what will get you in hell, just as it got the religious leaders in hell for not having faith in Jesus Christ.
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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If his faith is dead, he was never reborn. And that's what gets him in hell, it is not failing to give his brother or sister what is needed.

And dead faith does not save.
It means you never had true faith in the first place, which is what will get you in hell, just as it got the religious leaders in hell for not having faith in Jesus Christ.

Honestly I do not understand why you keep trying to separate these two things.

You used the phrase “true faith” so what is “false faith” in your mind? Because “false faith” to me would just be an oxymoron and it would make more sense to say faith vs faithlessness rather than redefining faith as “true faith” as if the qualifier “true” needs to be used to differentiate true faith from any other kind of non-true faith.

And in that, faith is active. It’s fidelity. Israel was betrothed to the Lord and the Church is the bride of Christ. Faith (faithfulness, fidelity) is an active, living state of being. The rich man died under the old covenant as @Der Alte said. He was part of Israel and his faithlessness was manifested in his action.

Again I really don’t think this is worth arguing about but I genuinely can’t understand how you can’t see it. I guess it bothers me to hear things like “In the NT, not feeding your hungry neighbour will not get you in hell” because it comes across like not understanding why it would actually be wrong to do what the rich man did. So then if you turn the whole thing into an abstract metaphor it’s like not even hearing or applying what it literally says.
 
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According to Orthodoxy as I understand it, going by Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20, Jesus released the rich man from hell and then put hell out of business.

That Hades is ultimately emptied and shut down is also confirmed by John in Revelation 20:13-14. Only Jesus has the keys to death and Hades, and he comes to free the prisoners, liberate the captives and raise the dead.

Still, according to many Hades is just a holding pen en route to the Ovens Valley.
 
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but if you view the Bible as God's plan for redemption, then the verses about hell are out of context.

That's very generous Steve. But may I suggest it's not the verses that are out of context, it's the assumptions that are tied to references to Hades, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire...not forgetting the Outer Darkness and Tartaroo.
 
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ozso

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That's very generous Steve. But may I suggest it's not the verses that are out of context, it's the assumptions that are tied to references to Hades, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire...not forgetting the Outer Darkness and Tartaroo.

I have to scratch my head over Peter using the term Tartarus.
 
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I have to scratch my head over Peter using the term Tartarus.

According to Greek mythology apparently, Tartarus is as far below Hades as Hades is below the earth. So the fallen angels start higher and finish lower, relative to man?

Ah, there's another one, the bottomless pit.
 
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Saint Steven

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That's very generous Steve. But may I suggest it's not the verses that are out of context, it's the assumptions that are tied to references to Hades, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire...not forgetting the Outer Darkness and Tartaroo.
I agree. But my analogy was dependent on equal comparatives.

Tartaroo sounds like a town name in the outback. - lol

Saint Steven said:
but if you view the Bible as God's plan for redemption, then the verses about hell are out of context.
 
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Saint Steven

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Ah, there's another one, the bottomless pit.
The "bottomless pit" sounds like an oxymoron. A pit without a bottom is just a hole.

Or as the saying goes: A rut is a grave with both ends kicked out.

Which might describe where we have ended up on this book review. A rut.
 
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