David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Clare73]

1. I have not found much support in the Scriptures for annihilation, and only a bit more for eternal torture in fire.

There is no annihilation in Scripture,
and Jesus has to say it only once to be divine truth, which he does in Mark 9:48.

2. In my research on these things, I did find what is perhaps the original Hell...in Norse mythology. You see, the pagan Norse believed in a goddess/ogress named "Hel" who ruled over her afterlife real of Helheim, or "House of Hel." The supposed that you spent eternity there if you did not rate Valhalla. We see "hel," "hell" and "helle" in Beowulf, a story set among the pagan Danes, who once ruled a large part of England, the Danelaw. Later, we see "hel" and "hell" in the English 1611 KJV. Now, it's just "hell." Can you see how the pagan "hel" got an extra "l" and was thus Christianized?

It's "Gehenna" in the original language, not "hell," so the origin of "hell" is irrelevant, a diversion, and has no bearing on the truth of Jesus' words in Mk 9:48.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

To be fair the word “hades” is the term for the realm of the dead originating in Greek paganism and they also used it to refer to the ruler of said realm.

Also, pagans were still humans descended from Adam, it isn’t that they literally had no concept of God, but rather that they corrupted the truth of God into idolatry and worship of the creation. So even the concept of hades or hel could be a corruption of the idea of Sheol, in the Old Testament, rather than a complete falsehood built up from scratch.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
(Romans 1:20-21, NKJV)

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

"Hades" is not in Scripture.

In the Greek:

Strong's Greek: 86. ᾅδης (hadés) -- Hades, the abode of departed spirits

 

[Clare73]

In the Greek:

Strong's Greek: 86. ᾅδης (hadés) -- Hades, the abode of departed spirits

Yeah, I was thinking KJV. Thanks

 

[Saint Steven]

1. I have not found much support in the Scriptures for annihilation, and only a bit more for eternal torture in fire.

2. In my research on these things, I did find what is perhaps the original Hell...in Norse mythology. You see, the pagan Norse believed in a goddess/ogress named "Hel" who ruled over her afterlife real of Helheim, or "House of Hel." The supposed that you spent eternity there if you did not rate Valhalla. We see "hel," "hell" and "helle" in Beowulf, a story set among the pagan Danes, who once ruled a large part of England, the Danelaw. Later, we see "hel" and "hell" in the English 1611 KJV. Now, it's just "hell." Can you see how the pagan "hel" got an extra "l" and was thus Christianized?

Christianity is so pagan in some respects. I can't believe we still use the word Easter as the day to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. - lol

 

[JSRG]

Agreed. . .and it matters not, Jesus still said it is "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:48).

Huh? Now I'm very confused. So, I pointed out that the verses you cited did not have Jesus say Gehenna was a garbage dump. You apparently agree with that. But then you claim "it matters not" because Jesus still said it was "unquenchable fire." But unquenchable fire sure as heck doesn't mean it's a garbage dump. If your contention is that, yes, Gehenna was a garbage dump south of Jerusalem back then, then it does matter if the proof you cite for it being a garbage dump doesn't actually say it was.

 

[Saint Steven]

In the Greek:

Strong's Greek: 86. ᾅδης (hadés) -- Hades, the abode of departed spirits

There are 29 references to "realm of the dead" in the NIV Bible. Amazingly, two of them are in Acts chapter two.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead

 

[Clare73]

Christianity is so pagan in some respects. I can't believe we still use the word Easter as the day to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. - lol

I can't believe it is an issue with you.

Words mean what people use them to mean.
There is nothing pagan in Christianity about the word Easter.
Are you looking for things to indict?

Surely there are other offenses to be concerned about.

 

[Clare73]

Huh? Now I'm very confused. So, I pointed out that the verses you cited did not have Jesus say Gehenna was a garbage dump. You apparently agree with that. But then you claim "it matters not" because Jesus still said it was "unquenchable fire." But unquenchable fire sure as heck doesn't mean it's a garbage dump. If your contention is that, yes, Gehenna was a garbage dump south of Jerusalem back then, then it does matter if the proof you cite for it being a garbage dump doesn't actually say it was.

Okay. . .it matters not whether Gehenna was a garbage dump or not. That issue doesn't have to be resolved because it has no affect on what Jesus said, which is the issue--that it is the destiny of the damned, where the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:48)

Everything else is just diversion.

 

[Der Alte]

To be fair the word “hades” is the term for the realm of the dead originating in Greek paganism and they also used it to refer to the ruler of said realm.
Also, pagans were still humans descended from Adam, it isn’t that they literally had no concept of God, but rather that they corrupted the truth of God into idolatry and worship of the creation. So even the concept of hades or hel could be a corruption of the idea of Sheol, in the Old Testament, rather than a complete falsehood built up from scratch.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
(Romans 1:20-21, NKJV)

I have been active at this forum for more than 2 decades. I realized early on that all the "No hell" arguments are repeated endlessly on this and other forums. With that realization I began saving my responses. Here is one of them.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which is translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 

[Der Alte]

The next part of the "No hell" argument is "Gehenna was only the valley of [the sons of] Hinnom outside Jerusalem where trash [and dead bodies] were constantly burning." or words to that effect.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

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Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem​

 

[Clare73]

The next part of the "No hell" argument is "Gehenna was only the valley of [the sons of] Hinnom outside Jerusalem where trash [and dead bodies] were constantly burning." or words to that effect.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

= = = = = = = =

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem​

Over 20 years!. . .WOW! . .we were all in diapers!

 

[JSRG]

Okay. . .it matters not whether Gehenna was a garbage dump or not. That issue doesn't have to be resolved because it has no affect on what Jesus said, which is the issue--that it is the destiny of the damned, where the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:48)

Everything else is just diversion.

No, the issue is whether it was a garbage dump or not. That was literally the entire point of my original post. Here it is again:

From what I have read, the first actual mention of Gehenna being "the perpetually burning city dump south of Jerusalem" comes from the 12th/13th century Rabbi David Kimhi. If this is true, and someone may correct me if I am wrong, then it seems highly unlikely that a first century text would have been alluding to this idea of Gehenna.

That's the only argument I've even made in this topic, to point out the above. You apparently took massive offense with it and that started up this whole argument.

If you think the question of whether it was a garbage dump or not is irrelevant to whatever argument you're asserting, then go ahead with that argument! I never took issue in this topic with anything other than the claim of it being a garbage dump, which I wanted to point out there was slim evidence for. If you don't even think the question matters to what you're arguing, I'm not sure why you've spent so much time declaring I'm wrong on the above point.

 

[Der Alte]

Over 20 years!. . .WOW! . .we were all in diapers!

I can remember when FDR was president.
I was a medic traipsing through the woods playing "war" in Germany with the Army when I heard about JFK's assassination on somebody else's transistor radio walking through dark as midnight woods. I was getting ready to take a seriously ill soldier, pneumonia, to a hospital. His superiors tried to stop me but my "medical opinion" out ranked their objections. And rightly so he could have died if I hadn't taken him to the hospital. His leaders complained to my boss, the Dr., who succinctly put them in their place.

 

[Saint Steven]

No, the issue is whether it was a garbage dump or not. That was literally the entire point of my original post. Here it is again:

That's the only argument I've even made in this topic, to point out the above. You apparently took massive offense with it and that started up this whole argument.

If you think the question of whether it was a garbage dump or not is irrelevant to whatever argument you're asserting, then go ahead with that argument! I never took issue in this topic with anything other than the claim of it being a garbage dump, which I wanted to point out there was slim evidence for. If you don't even think the question matters to what you're arguing, I'm not sure why you've spent so much time declaring I'm wrong on the above point.

I think you are correct about Gehenna not being a garbage dump. Even though I have heard the argument that it was. In a quick search I couldn't find any data to prove otherwise. There may be proof, I just haven't found it.

What are your thoughts on some of the other claims of UR? Do you believe in a forever burning hell?

 

[ozso]

Jesus used the word "death" seventeen times when He meant death He said death. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection they knew that everybody died young, old, men, women, children, infants and most of the time it did not involve punishment. On two occasions Jesus mentioned a fate worse than death.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

I'm not up on Patristics as much as I should be, so I'd have to study that dialogue in-depth to get a better handle on what's being said. From what I understand eternal torment was not a prevailing teaching at that time.

Also I believe a lot of what Jesus had to say about punishment and suffering had to do with the approaching end of the Old Covenant and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Lots of weeping and gnashing of teeth over that I'm sure.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

If no one is in jeopardy of eternal damnation, and all are saved, why the gospel at all?

I tend to concur with Brian's answers, but not fully.

The idea that hell is a 'necessary evil' to keep ppl on the 'straight and narrow' is totally debunked. It was an error of the early church (who used to teach it to catachumen as 'milk' and then progressively reveal the truth of salvation of all as 'meat' for the maturing disciple). I say error because it reflects a lack of trust in God and imposes a terrorist spiritual politics into the world. This is exactly how the Pharisees were inflicting the idea of Gehenna on to the people, and why Jesus is always 'flipping' it on on them eg, in the story of Richie and Lazarus, and the various indictments eg 'Sons of Hell', 'how are you gonna escape the judgment of hell', and so on.

The passage in Matt 10:28-33 (within the Matt 10 context) is very instructive on this, because it starts with the warning that God is more to be feared than man, because of His power to destroy the soul, but continues to say 'fear not, you're worth more than many sparrows' (v.31), then further to warn If you disown me on earth I'll disown you before the Father in heaven' (v.32-33). The chapter ends with a verse about a little kindness to brethren will ensure a disciple's reward is not lost (v.42).

Jesus here is busy correcting and redeeming the 'fear of God' from a 'spiritual terrorism' model to an 'offence against Love' model. The disciple should fear the shame of letting down their Father and friend, losing the honour and trust gained as the reward of keeping faith and walking in grace.

The terrorist model was again taken up by the Catholic church and particularly from the Emperor Justinian, who (with the help of Augustinian theology) reintroduced Roman law and anathematised the holy universalism of 'Origenism', in favour of an aristotelian materialistic naturalistic modality.

I believe that this was when God began to turn His face away from the church, and this led to the deepening of corruption, medievalism, the sack of Contantinople and the crusades, the schism, the reformation, modernism, and the total mess that variously calls itself 'the Church' we see today, that's willing to shut up shop for Passover/ Easter communion and pretend its ok to do it via Zoom, because of some fake health scare. Blind guides abound, so many under the sorceries of babylon. The mark of the Beast and revealing of the man of sin are just around the corner.

If people had been prepared to maintain the trust in God that giving others the simple apostolic good news that God was reconciled to them, and all they needed to do was to look to Christ to be free from the curse of sin and death, without the 'extra motivation' of a bonus afterlife fire insurance policy, we could all be living in the Kingdom now. But Satan got in and tempted man back to self-righteousness, vanity, cruelty and the night terrors.

Forgive us Father and save us from the tyranny of our flesh, for we are but dust, serpent-fodder.

 

[ozso]

Nevertheless, it is neither God's view nor the Biblical view, or Jesus would not have had to go to the cross to pay the penalty. He could have just come to heal, teach and forgive.

It would have been a whole easier on Jesus had the orthodox view been God's view.

You don't understand the view then. By His stripes we are healed. Sin is a plauge in this present age. Sin and death needed to be vanquished. We needed a new Adam.

 

[Der Alte]

Like I said the first time, Jesus condemned the extra-biblical unscriptural teachings of the Scribes and Pharisees etc.
Jesus referred to Isaiah 66:24 when He talked about Gehenna. Since that's the source He was appealing to, it seems the key to understanding what Jesus meant, is in understanding what Isaiah was talking about.

I'm not up on Patristics as much as I should be, so I'd have to study that dialogug in-depth to get a better handle on what's being said. From what I understand eternal torment was not a prevailing teaching at that time.
Also I believe a lot of what Jesus had to say about punishment and suffering had to do with the approaching end of the Old Covenant and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Lots of weeping and gnashing of teeth over that I'm sure.

You might get a fairly thorough overview by reading my posts in this thread e.g. [post #251]., above, I document everything I post and provide links whenever possible.
I have posted and provided a link to what Jews contemporary with Jesus understood about Isaiah 66:24.